Guillermo
member
Please refer to Double Naught's post
Why would I bother the police over something that is not criminal?
when you carry a hammer...
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Please refer to Double Naught's post
Why would I bother the police over something that is not criminal?
Carl N. Brown
Member
Link from cassandrasdaddy on the other thread:
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...se-update-dunn-told-police-he-felt-threatened
Jack Maddox, "Jordan Davis, Michael Dunn loud music shooting case update: Dunn told police he felt threatened", CNN via wptv.com News Channel 5, 27 Nov 2012.
Jordan Davis is the deceased, Michael Dunn the shooter.
Dunn left the scene, he and girlfriend spendt night at hotel, did not report to authorities until they saw on the news that Davis had died.
If it is legitimate self defense you should not leave the scene. You should be the first to report to the authorities, because:
Flight = guilt.
Reporting first = claiming victim status.
Delay in reporting = concocting a cover story.
Don't flee and don't delay in reporting. If you do, you shred your own credibility.
IF perceived danger forces you to flee, flee to the local police station and be the first to report (in my hometown the downtown Justice Center (local courts, city police station, satellite stations for various agencies) is a good haven to seek).
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...se-update-dunn-told-police-he-felt-threatened
Jack Maddox, "Jordan Davis, Michael Dunn loud music shooting case update: Dunn told police he felt threatened", CNN via wptv.com News Channel 5, 27 Nov 2012.
Jordan Davis is the deceased, Michael Dunn the shooter.
Dunn left the scene, he and girlfriend spendt night at hotel, did not report to authorities until they saw on the news that Davis had died.
If it is legitimate self defense you should not leave the scene. You should be the first to report to the authorities, because:
Flight = guilt.
Reporting first = claiming victim status.
Delay in reporting = concocting a cover story.
Don't flee and don't delay in reporting. If you do, you shred your own credibility.
IF perceived danger forces you to flee, flee to the local police station and be the first to report (in my hometown the downtown Justice Center (local courts, city police station, satellite stations for various agencies) is a good haven to seek).
If you suspect that the sound level may involve the violation of a municipal ordinance, it is permissible to talk to the police about it.
But it may or may not be necessary or appropriate. If your neighbor's roofer has a radio on loudly, you can either ignore it or speak to the neighbor about it.
If a group of strangers are playing cop-killer rap music loudly, it is probable that you really do not want to take the chance of interacting with them yourself*, it is likely that they would ignore you, and frankly, you as a citizen are not empowered to enforce the ordinance anyway--and they know it. You can either ignore it or call the police. On one such occasion, an off-duty policeman with whom I was visiting outside his jurisdiction chose to let it go.
_______
*Before you decide to bet everything on the assumption that the persons involved are "reasonable" (by your standards), it would be wise to learn a little about what motivates some of the kinds of people who might play loud anti-social music at a service station, what is important to their status in their group as it may relate to their dealing with you, and how to interact with them if you for whatever reason cannot avoid them. Rory Miller and Massad Ayoob both provide some excellent discussion on the subject.
Guillermo
member
Kleanbore...you are adding more variables to the scenario.
We were talking "loud music" not "loud cop killer rap".
In addition, those that look thuggy are oft thugs or thug-wannabes.
You deal with them in a different way. And one of the advantages is that if something happens, the guy in the pants 14 sizes too big and the cop-killer music is thought of in a different light than the fellow in the carhardt jacket and the fellow in the pinpoint oxford.
All of this said...I take it that the guy in line describing sex acts in front of your 5 year old will get you to talk to the manager. I will handle it differently.
We were talking "loud music" not "loud cop killer rap".
In addition, those that look thuggy are oft thugs or thug-wannabes.
You deal with them in a different way. And one of the advantages is that if something happens, the guy in the pants 14 sizes too big and the cop-killer music is thought of in a different light than the fellow in the carhardt jacket and the fellow in the pinpoint oxford.
All of this said...I take it that the guy in line describing sex acts in front of your 5 year old will get you to talk to the manager. I will handle it differently.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Well, let's see.
Here we have a car full of teens who are blasting obnoxious music in a public place. Does anyone here really think that these teens are simply oblivious to the fact that practically all the olde pharts out there don't care for their type and level of auditory stimulation?
And yet it seems like a reasonable thing to do, apparently, to walk over to a car full of hormone charged young humans who are already demonstrating a reduced level of concern for the impression they are making on society at large at best, and demonstrate for them that their efforts at annoying the olde pharts are being successful. Is there ANY reason to assume that, having achieved one success in annoying an olde phart, that further efforts from that crew might well be forthcoming?
To me the whole thing seems like a lost proposition from the getgo, and if confronted with such a situation I would rather just complete my business and go on my way, instead of playing SuperNanny and trying to straighten out someone else's misguided children, but that's just me.
Here we have a car full of teens who are blasting obnoxious music in a public place. Does anyone here really think that these teens are simply oblivious to the fact that practically all the olde pharts out there don't care for their type and level of auditory stimulation?
And yet it seems like a reasonable thing to do, apparently, to walk over to a car full of hormone charged young humans who are already demonstrating a reduced level of concern for the impression they are making on society at large at best, and demonstrate for them that their efforts at annoying the olde pharts are being successful. Is there ANY reason to assume that, having achieved one success in annoying an olde phart, that further efforts from that crew might well be forthcoming?
To me the whole thing seems like a lost proposition from the getgo, and if confronted with such a situation I would rather just complete my business and go on my way, instead of playing SuperNanny and trying to straighten out someone else's misguided children, but that's just me.
So, why would you expect them to act reasonably? Yes, you deal with them differently. You avoid them.
Well, you should certainly think of them in a different light and use that to your advantage, but when they are testifying against you, they will be very well groomed, very well dressed, and very polite indeed.
Guillermo
member
when one quits trying to clean up our little corner of the world, we give up.
Not even calling one on being rude is accepting of rudeness.
That is your right but don't whine when people are rude. (this applies to anything...not just rudeness)
BTW, I deal with teenage males all the time as a volunteer basketball coach. Many inner-city thug teams play in the select leagues. I am familiar with how many act when tired, frustrated and emotional.
Some have been aggressive...others have apologized later for their behavior.
Have standards, stick to them.
It is sometimes refreshing what transpires.
Not even calling one on being rude is accepting of rudeness.
That is your right but don't whine when people are rude. (this applies to anything...not just rudeness)
BTW, I deal with teenage males all the time as a volunteer basketball coach. Many inner-city thug teams play in the select leagues. I am familiar with how many act when tired, frustrated and emotional.
Some have been aggressive...others have apologized later for their behavior.
Have standards, stick to them.
It is sometimes refreshing what transpires.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Keep in mind that sometimes the ones that look like thugs...really are. They're not all cowards and wannabes. Sometimes they will just shoot you. The whole "gang violence" thing isn't just some huge worldwide act.
There's a very good chance that they are breaking the law by using obscenities in public. I've actually seen someone prosecuted/ticketed for this offense.
As for what to do, you do what you think is best, keeping in mind that you may be creating a confrontation which won't end well. It's just like any other decision you make. You need to consider all the options and decide whether the risk is worth the benefit.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Dunn should have just pumped his gas and left. IMO. But he didn't so He messed up when he
1. Left the Gas Station.
2. Was not the first one to call the LEO's Mass says always be first.
1. Left the Gas Station.
2. Was not the first one to call the LEO's Mass says always be first.
Guillermo
member
true
and standing up to evil is the job of all good men.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
How exactly is one citizen's musical volume preference "evil"?
If you're going to take this role, then you owe it to yourself and society to equip yourself with a good deal of training--particularly in the area of non-violent conflict resolution, and also with range of equipment that will allow you a wide spectrum of force responses as opposed to only a firearm.
Otherwise, you risk ending up like Zimmerman or Dunn who both took on the job of policing their little corner of the world and ended up in over their heads.
HorseSoldier
Member
This guy's actions rise to the epic fail level of poor decision making.
#1) Sure, loud music is obnoxious. Confronting a pack of teenagers about their music's volume is just dumb, though. What did he expect would be the outcome of trying to impose his will on one or more teens in front of their peers? It's a scenario that does not imply an inevitable escalation to violence, but it is a scenario that just about guarantees some sort of confrontation or resistance, even if it is just verbal.
#2) Others have already discussed his failure to immediately contact law enforcement about the shooting and the rest of his post-shooting behavior. This may very well have compounded his initial errors critically if it means a gun that was present at the scene disappeared while he was checking into his hotel room for the night. It certainly does nothing to suggest he was overly concerned about the potential criminal or civil consequences of his actions.
#1) Sure, loud music is obnoxious. Confronting a pack of teenagers about their music's volume is just dumb, though. What did he expect would be the outcome of trying to impose his will on one or more teens in front of their peers? It's a scenario that does not imply an inevitable escalation to violence, but it is a scenario that just about guarantees some sort of confrontation or resistance, even if it is just verbal.
#2) Others have already discussed his failure to immediately contact law enforcement about the shooting and the rest of his post-shooting behavior. This may very well have compounded his initial errors critically if it means a gun that was present at the scene disappeared while he was checking into his hotel room for the night. It certainly does nothing to suggest he was overly concerned about the potential criminal or civil consequences of his actions.
Guillermo
member
no one said that loud music was evil.
That was a direct response to your assertion that there are real gang bangers out there and that they may shoot people.
That was a direct response to your assertion that there are real gang bangers out there and that they may shoot people.
Guillermo
member
let's clarify
If a jerk is a jerk...you should call him on it or you perpetuate it.
If a guy is willing to shoot you over telling him that his music is too loud, you are not the aggressor.
As Jeff Cooper once wrote "The only honorable response to violence is counter-violence. To surrender to extortion is a greater sin than extortion, in that it breeds and feeds the very act it seeks to avoid. "
If a jerk is a jerk...you should call him on it or you perpetuate it.
If a guy is willing to shoot you over telling him that his music is too loud, you are not the aggressor.
As Jeff Cooper once wrote "The only honorable response to violence is counter-violence. To surrender to extortion is a greater sin than extortion, in that it breeds and feeds the very act it seeks to avoid. "
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Ok. What's our objective source on what defines a jerk?
Guillermo
member
Rather than trying to define what makes one a jerk, let's swerve back the the OP.
The guy with the blaring music was (from reports) unquestionably a jerk.
I know that you and several others would just grit your teeth and pump your gas.
In most circumstances I say that this is not the correct response for the reasons which have been repeatedly stated.
The guy with the blaring music was (from reports) unquestionably a jerk.
I know that you and several others would just grit your teeth and pump your gas.
In most circumstances I say that this is not the correct response for the reasons which have been repeatedly stated.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
But I'm asking you specifically a question. You are advising us to call out jerks for being jerks. Ok. Where do I look to see what defines a jerk so that I know how to spot one to call out?
That is very scant consolation if you are shot, or if the triers of fact decide that your use of deadly force would not have been necessary, and was therefore by definition not lawfully justified, but for your having approached him while armed.
Guillermo
member
After your response in Post #62 I am reluctant to expand the conversation.
This is (or recently was) America.
In some portions of society perhaps using the word "damn" in front of a woman is unacceptable.
In other sub-cultures "mother" is half a word.
The situations vary with the time and place.
But we can all agree that blaring music at a gas station is unacceptable behavior.
This is (or recently was) America.
In some portions of society perhaps using the word "damn" in front of a woman is unacceptable.
In other sub-cultures "mother" is half a word.
The situations vary with the time and place.
But we can all agree that blaring music at a gas station is unacceptable behavior.
Guillermo
member
Sadly many operate only within the confines of their own best interest.
Such perpetuates and even encourages unacceptable behavior.
It also suggests that preparing for trouble makes one more vulnerable if something bad happens which is counter-intuitive.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Except for the people doing it. Demonstrate how "we" are right and they're not.
Fotno
Member
And if Dunn had, he wouldn't be in jail right now.
Guillermo
member
Why?
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