Gordon Fink
Member
I’m ashamed of you guys! If the deputy had been armed, maybe the result would have been different.
~G. Fink
White female officers more likely to use deadly force.
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I’m ashamed of you guys! If the deputy had been armed, maybe the result would have been different.
~G. Fink
This one bears repeating --
Coulter is pushing an agenda every bit as much as the feminists she decries. Whether Coulter is right about female cops or not, there's no good reason to ignore the Atlanta management's culpability in this. I think Coulter's article is a downright disengenuous attempt to excuse people who should not be excused for inexcusable stupidity and inept management.
pax
Quote from the Boss... I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame it on you. -- Robert J Elkins
Nor should the officer's backup be nonexistent (three minutes? That's just about forever!).
Coulter is pushing an agenda every bit as much as the feminists she decries. Whether Coulter is right about female cops or not, there's no good reason to ignore the Atlanta management's culpability in this. I think Coulter's article is a downright disengenuous attempt to excuse people who should not be excused for inexcusable stupidity and inept management.
pax
Quote from the Boss... I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame it on you. -- Robert J Elkins
Some people here still don't quite have all the facts straight yet.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/atlanta.summary/
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/atlanta.summary/
Spreadfire Arms
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i agree with a few others here. it was a huge error on the part of the fact that nobody was monitoring the cameras at the courthouse. the other fact is that no back-up responded after 3 minutes in a courthouse. don't know if she had a radio or if it was broken or taken from her. normally that is the quickest way to get help.
i think this guy probably was desperate and may have had his escape already planned out. if not in any great detail, he knew that this was the time and place to do it, if he was going to do it at all. the fact that someone smaller than him was to escort him from here to there was in his favor. he may have seen other deputies in the building use their keys to put their guns in the gun locker, so he knew their procedure, where it was located, and what the key looked like. that was so he wouldn't burn time looking for the key or locating the gun locker.
i think if it was a single male deputy, a college linebacker would have taken him on as well. maybe he wouldn't have gotten away, maybe he would have.
maybe if the female deputy had a gun or at least a backup knife or something she may have been able to incapacitate the suspect. who knows.
they also shouldn't have escorted the prisoner unhandcuffed, or cuffed in the front. it looks like a bunch of procedural errors at Fulton County caused this incident to occur.
but to blame it on the fact that he was escorted by a single FEMALE deputy, in my opinion, is not the sole deciding factor.
as an aside to the thread about the bouncers, i work part time as a doorman on 6th St. in Austin. we have big guys and little guys, but i do believe when someone said it just comes down to someone who is downright "mean" i think that is a very true thing, at least at this place.
young people might be fueled on liquor, hormones, and testosterone, and talk alot of smack, but they just never seem to do anything more than talk. while it may have nothing to do than just posturing in front of a crowd, i honestly don't think any of them want to go toe-to-toe alone and without an audience. it wouldn't make them look any better since nobody would see it.
but i've seen downright nastiness determine the outcome of many a fight.
i think this guy probably was desperate and may have had his escape already planned out. if not in any great detail, he knew that this was the time and place to do it, if he was going to do it at all. the fact that someone smaller than him was to escort him from here to there was in his favor. he may have seen other deputies in the building use their keys to put their guns in the gun locker, so he knew their procedure, where it was located, and what the key looked like. that was so he wouldn't burn time looking for the key or locating the gun locker.
i think if it was a single male deputy, a college linebacker would have taken him on as well. maybe he wouldn't have gotten away, maybe he would have.
maybe if the female deputy had a gun or at least a backup knife or something she may have been able to incapacitate the suspect. who knows.
they also shouldn't have escorted the prisoner unhandcuffed, or cuffed in the front. it looks like a bunch of procedural errors at Fulton County caused this incident to occur.
but to blame it on the fact that he was escorted by a single FEMALE deputy, in my opinion, is not the sole deciding factor.
as an aside to the thread about the bouncers, i work part time as a doorman on 6th St. in Austin. we have big guys and little guys, but i do believe when someone said it just comes down to someone who is downright "mean" i think that is a very true thing, at least at this place.
young people might be fueled on liquor, hormones, and testosterone, and talk alot of smack, but they just never seem to do anything more than talk. while it may have nothing to do than just posturing in front of a crowd, i honestly don't think any of them want to go toe-to-toe alone and without an audience. it wouldn't make them look any better since nobody would see it.
but i've seen downright nastiness determine the outcome of many a fight.
Jeremae
Member
1. Ann Coulter often uses humerous hyperbole to stress her point. It is an accepted practice of almost all commentators.
2. There are a lot of facts reported about this incident that don't add up.
for example:
Nichols is described as a violent criminal.
but
has only 1 prior on his record a misdemeanor disturbing the peace while in school.
People who know him describe him as friendly and even tempered.
but
he is also called 'noone to mess with' by someone who knows him.
He is 6' 1" over 200lbs, ex college athlete, martial artist and "was found with 2 sharpened hinges (shanks) in his socks 2 days before"
but
a 57 year old petite female was assigned to move him by herself.
The rape case against him boils down to Her word against His and the first trial ended in a hung jury 8 to 4 in his favor
but
the DA after interviewing the first jury immediately starts a second trial.
there are other things I have noticed that just don't add up...
3. There are women physically capable of general police work and there are various aspects of police work that women can generally do better than men but in my personal opinion Women should not be cops.
2. There are a lot of facts reported about this incident that don't add up.
for example:
Nichols is described as a violent criminal.
but
has only 1 prior on his record a misdemeanor disturbing the peace while in school.
People who know him describe him as friendly and even tempered.
but
he is also called 'noone to mess with' by someone who knows him.
He is 6' 1" over 200lbs, ex college athlete, martial artist and "was found with 2 sharpened hinges (shanks) in his socks 2 days before"
but
a 57 year old petite female was assigned to move him by herself.
The rape case against him boils down to Her word against His and the first trial ended in a hung jury 8 to 4 in his favor
but
the DA after interviewing the first jury immediately starts a second trial.
there are other things I have noticed that just don't add up...
3. There are women physically capable of general police work and there are various aspects of police work that women can generally do better than men but in my personal opinion Women should not be cops.
I have a suggestion.
Give all officers better weapons handling training, and require higher standards in weapons handling.
That should help address the issue of more accidental shootings.
As for more justified shootings of criminals... Having a few less criminals around that assault cops isn't really a bad thing in my mind. Those criminals made their choice when they chose to assault an officer.
For those cases where less deadly force is appropriate, give officers TASERs.
There will always be some jobs in law enforcement that require greater physical strength than most women have, and those jobs need to be handled by those capable of handling them.
In the case of Nichols, no single armed officer should have been left alone and unobserved with him while his shackles were off. Regardless of it that officer is male or female, that's a bad thing.
Doing so with a physically weak female officer was even more exceptionally stupid, but given the right tools, the right procedures, and the right backup, it's a job that could be done by a woman just fine.
It was the wrong tools, the bad procedures, and the poor observation policies that allowed Nichols to do what he did, not the sex of the officer.
Give all officers better weapons handling training, and require higher standards in weapons handling.
That should help address the issue of more accidental shootings.
As for more justified shootings of criminals... Having a few less criminals around that assault cops isn't really a bad thing in my mind. Those criminals made their choice when they chose to assault an officer.
For those cases where less deadly force is appropriate, give officers TASERs.
There will always be some jobs in law enforcement that require greater physical strength than most women have, and those jobs need to be handled by those capable of handling them.
In the case of Nichols, no single armed officer should have been left alone and unobserved with him while his shackles were off. Regardless of it that officer is male or female, that's a bad thing.
Doing so with a physically weak female officer was even more exceptionally stupid, but given the right tools, the right procedures, and the right backup, it's a job that could be done by a woman just fine.
It was the wrong tools, the bad procedures, and the poor observation policies that allowed Nichols to do what he did, not the sex of the officer.
carpettbaggerr
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So an unarmed female officer was guarding a prisoner who outweighed her by 100 lbs, and was 12 inches taller than her? And the prisoner had been caught with 2 shanks the day before? Mind-boggling.
The management was inexcusable. But Nichols wouldn't have been able to overpower a 6ft, 200 lb. man in the same fashion. Even a man 50 lbs lighter would probably have been able to resist sufficiently that Nichols wouldn't have gained access to a gun locked away in a different room.
A woman that much smaller had no chance at all. And for some reason most commentators aren't addressing that at all.
Right about what? That women are smaller than men? That women are weaker than men of the same size and weight? That women are generally less aggressive? Or that criminals have less fear of, and respect for women?
The management was inexcusable. But Nichols wouldn't have been able to overpower a 6ft, 200 lb. man in the same fashion. Even a man 50 lbs lighter would probably have been able to resist sufficiently that Nichols wouldn't have gained access to a gun locked away in a different room.
A woman that much smaller had no chance at all. And for some reason most commentators aren't addressing that at all.
carpettbagger ~
Three minutes is a long time.
And the whole male/female thing is a red herring. There's no way that Coulter will get her wish, and drag our society back to the golden days of the 1950's when Men were Manly and Women were Womanly and no woman dared get a divorce (or a real job) because the neighbors would talk. Female cops are here to stay, so this whole debate is utterly pointless.
The real issue is whether the citizens of Atlanta will continue to tolerate and encourage such inexcusably stupid management in their corrections department. There's some merit in discussing that issue -- because that might change.
Ms. Coulter's sarcasm about lady cops is an attempt to turn the public conversation away from something that could and should be done. It's almost enough to make me wonder whose job she's protecting.
pax
Three minutes is a long time.
And the whole male/female thing is a red herring. There's no way that Coulter will get her wish, and drag our society back to the golden days of the 1950's when Men were Manly and Women were Womanly and no woman dared get a divorce (or a real job) because the neighbors would talk. Female cops are here to stay, so this whole debate is utterly pointless.
The real issue is whether the citizens of Atlanta will continue to tolerate and encourage such inexcusably stupid management in their corrections department. There's some merit in discussing that issue -- because that might change.
Ms. Coulter's sarcasm about lady cops is an attempt to turn the public conversation away from something that could and should be done. It's almost enough to make me wonder whose job she's protecting.
pax
Sean Smith
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There are several layers of stupidity here. It is sort of a tragic moron onion, if you will.
There is a basic logical disconnect in having an UNARMED tiny old woman escort a massive, fit, violent young man. It is, to put it nicely, stupid as hell. Pretending otherwise is beyond PC, it is total PC retardation. And yet people persist in indulging in it.
Of course, it is equally true that a tiny old man guarding the guy, unarmed, by himself, would be approximately as stupid.
I think the attack on Coulter and Fox News concerning their reporting on this incident are silly in the extreme (for once). If ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, et. al. made similar errors of detail in this case (hint: they did), then how are Coulter and Fox News a bunch of lying Nazis for making the same mistakes all their left-leaning competitors did? Oopsie, logical disconnect!
But back to the case, there are all kinds of stupidities here: the whole idea the guy needed to be uncuffed in the first place, given his background; the total lack of backup for the little woman guarding the huge guy; the fact that she was unarmed and had her weapon in a locked box while guarding a large and dangerous mutant... the list goes on and on. It is almost like the people she worked with WANTED her to get killed, really.
The bottom line is, aside from maybe choosing a career outside any logical evaluation of her physical abilities, the guard is pretty far down the blame chain.
There is a basic logical disconnect in having an UNARMED tiny old woman escort a massive, fit, violent young man. It is, to put it nicely, stupid as hell. Pretending otherwise is beyond PC, it is total PC retardation. And yet people persist in indulging in it.
Of course, it is equally true that a tiny old man guarding the guy, unarmed, by himself, would be approximately as stupid.
I think the attack on Coulter and Fox News concerning their reporting on this incident are silly in the extreme (for once). If ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, et. al. made similar errors of detail in this case (hint: they did), then how are Coulter and Fox News a bunch of lying Nazis for making the same mistakes all their left-leaning competitors did? Oopsie, logical disconnect!
But back to the case, there are all kinds of stupidities here: the whole idea the guy needed to be uncuffed in the first place, given his background; the total lack of backup for the little woman guarding the huge guy; the fact that she was unarmed and had her weapon in a locked box while guarding a large and dangerous mutant... the list goes on and on. It is almost like the people she worked with WANTED her to get killed, really.
The bottom line is, aside from maybe choosing a career outside any logical evaluation of her physical abilities, the guard is pretty far down the blame chain.
coylh
Member
Why does she specify white female officers? Do black female officers perform differently in the studies she's citing?
Sean Smith
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I'd agree, though maybe the women should have to demonstrate the same minimal level of physical ability as the men in jobs that are physically dangerous, which they typically don't.
Obvious example: a failing physical fitness test score for a man in the Army could earn a woman a physical fitness badge.
Wow, I know this never happens online, but it appears that we agree completely.
Not that this one's likely to happen either. But it's a whole lot more likely than what Coulter appears to be angling for.
pax
Nobody will ever win the Battle of the Sexes. There's just too much fraternizing with the enemy. -- Henry Kissinger
Frohickey
Member
I don't think municipalities can afford big men to guard violent criminals.
Most of them are under multi-year contracts playing professional sports.
Most of them are under multi-year contracts playing professional sports.
Sean Smith
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A broke clock is right twice a day. Question is, who is the broken clock?
Regarding female LEOs, a good friend of mine who retired from the Washington DC police dept. as a sargent had little regard for female LEos. He said maybe one in 50 was any good. And the female LEOs resorted to lethal force way too quick and often, by pulling their gun out.
This cop was a big man, about 6'4 250 and lifted weights and stayed in shape.
This cop was a big man, about 6'4 250 and lifted weights and stayed in shape.
carpettbaggerr
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Yep, and they'll keep getting killed because they're physically outmatched. Oh, well, at least they weren't discriminated against.
3 minutes is a long time if you're being beaten unmercifully. That's what I'm assuming happened. Well, actually 10 seconds of struggle, 30 seconds of beating, 2 minutes 20 seconds of searching the unconscious Deputy to find the keys. Looking at it that way, 3 minutes doesn't seem very long at all.
I'd be very, very suprised to see a 3 minute long fight going on in that elevator, wouldn't you?
The rape case against him boils down to Her word against His and the first trial ended in a hung jury 8 to 4 in his favor
but the DA after interviewing the first jury immediately starts a second trial.
The first jury vote was in the States' favor (Some media outlets have reported it the opposite way. Some said 6-6). The case resumed quickly b/c the Judge and DA knew that no other jury would be crazy enough to let this guy go. This time, the case was going very well, and the Defense asked the Judge what he was inclined to give on a guilty plea, hoping to avoid a lengthy prison sentence that would follow a trial. Judge Barnes indicated he would not give less than 20 years, even on a plea (no parole- Nichols would do every day of twenty years in prison). Nichols knew the case was going badly for him. His own lawyer (whom he'd paid $30,000 for this case) said he was probably going to lose. Once Nichols learned he was facing at least 20 years, he made his escape.
I got this info today at Judge Barne's funeral, from friends who were present for the trial. Some of the ADA's trying the case had already told me.
but the DA after interviewing the first jury immediately starts a second trial.
The first jury vote was in the States' favor (Some media outlets have reported it the opposite way. Some said 6-6). The case resumed quickly b/c the Judge and DA knew that no other jury would be crazy enough to let this guy go. This time, the case was going very well, and the Defense asked the Judge what he was inclined to give on a guilty plea, hoping to avoid a lengthy prison sentence that would follow a trial. Judge Barnes indicated he would not give less than 20 years, even on a plea (no parole- Nichols would do every day of twenty years in prison). Nichols knew the case was going badly for him. His own lawyer (whom he'd paid $30,000 for this case) said he was probably going to lose. Once Nichols learned he was facing at least 20 years, he made his escape.
I got this info today at Judge Barne's funeral, from friends who were present for the trial. Some of the ADA's trying the case had already told me.
One officer should never be considered sufficient to physically restrain a prisoner.
It doesn't matter if they are male or female.
The officer in the cell isn't there to restrain the prisoner, they're there to watch out for contraband items when the prisoner is changing clothes.
If restraint is needed it's supposed to be in the form of others comming in if a problem is observer on the monitor.
A large man can be quickly disabled by someone who knows how to do so. It doesn't require a lot of strength. What it really requires is for the officer to be inattentive for a very short time and be surprised.
Since they had reason to believe that Nichols was dangerous, he should have never been alone with a single officer regardles of the gender of that officer.
There should have been people watching the monitor and ready to lend assistance if needed.
With proper training, and the proper equipment, a female officer can physically restrain a prisoner that just fine.
The only exception to that may be one that is pumped up on drugs, and a single male officer isn't going to restrain someone in that condition either.
Male and female officers may have different levels where they are forced to switch to more deadly means of stopping a suspect or prisoner.
However, it's the suspect/prisoner that is forcing the situation into a violent or even deadly encounter. It's not the fault of the officers.
Being a cop isn't the best paying job in the world for the risks they take and the abuse they get from some of the public.
Many women can do the job well if properly trained and equipped. There are definately women that don't have the physical capacity or the proper attitude. There are also men who don't have those qualities either.
There needs to be reasonable standards set for all officers, not different standards for men and women.
Those standards will exclude more women than men due to how God designed us.
However, we shouldn't exclude women from being officers based on them being women. We should include or exclude male and female candidates based on their capabilities.
If the bar has been lowered too low to include women on the force that aren't qualified, then the bar needs to be raised to an appropriate level.
It doesn't matter if they are male or female.
The officer in the cell isn't there to restrain the prisoner, they're there to watch out for contraband items when the prisoner is changing clothes.
If restraint is needed it's supposed to be in the form of others comming in if a problem is observer on the monitor.
A large man can be quickly disabled by someone who knows how to do so. It doesn't require a lot of strength. What it really requires is for the officer to be inattentive for a very short time and be surprised.
Since they had reason to believe that Nichols was dangerous, he should have never been alone with a single officer regardles of the gender of that officer.
There should have been people watching the monitor and ready to lend assistance if needed.
With proper training, and the proper equipment, a female officer can physically restrain a prisoner that just fine.
The only exception to that may be one that is pumped up on drugs, and a single male officer isn't going to restrain someone in that condition either.
Male and female officers may have different levels where they are forced to switch to more deadly means of stopping a suspect or prisoner.
However, it's the suspect/prisoner that is forcing the situation into a violent or even deadly encounter. It's not the fault of the officers.
Being a cop isn't the best paying job in the world for the risks they take and the abuse they get from some of the public.
Many women can do the job well if properly trained and equipped. There are definately women that don't have the physical capacity or the proper attitude. There are also men who don't have those qualities either.
There needs to be reasonable standards set for all officers, not different standards for men and women.
Those standards will exclude more women than men due to how God designed us.
However, we shouldn't exclude women from being officers based on them being women. We should include or exclude male and female candidates based on their capabilities.
If the bar has been lowered too low to include women on the force that aren't qualified, then the bar needs to be raised to an appropriate level.
In my comment about females LEOs on the DC police dept. and that they often pulled guns, unnecessarily resorting to deadly force, my police buddy also mentioned that those females LEOs who drew their guns, often had them taken away by a suspect.
If that is the case, then those female LEOs are a public danger.
If that is the case, then those female LEOs are a public danger.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
A good example of the old adage: When your only tool is a hammer, every problem seems to be a nail.
Near where I live, a male SWAT team officer was in a single car looking for a burglary suspect in an apartment complex. The suspect, not particulary physically imposing as compared to the officer, managed to get his gun and shoot the officer dead. What's the percentage of officers, mostly male, who are disarmed and shot with their own guns?
Just want to point out that one case does not a policy make. Thus, SWAT team officers should not be allowed to look for burglary suspects. BTW, our SWAT team just won a national competition so they are not unskilled.
It is pretty clear that the majority of variance is the lack of procedure. Nichols was a big guy - even the best of you might be taken down by a surprise blow.
Perhaps Ann need an upgrade at the Stepford Wives factory?
Just want to point out that one case does not a policy make. Thus, SWAT team officers should not be allowed to look for burglary suspects. BTW, our SWAT team just won a national competition so they are not unskilled.
It is pretty clear that the majority of variance is the lack of procedure. Nichols was a big guy - even the best of you might be taken down by a surprise blow.
Perhaps Ann need an upgrade at the Stepford Wives factory?
[B]It is pretty clear that the majority of variance is the lack of procedure. Nichols was a big guy - even the best of you might be taken down by a surprise blow. [/B]
Nichols was a man on a mission. At least one of his hostages said he was like a "commando"- calm, efficient, capable, and deadly. He had this thing planned, and executed the plan. A change in who guarded him may have only changed his tactics.
I will say this. I do understand and agree with the need for rigorous physical standards for LE officers. I think they should apply across the board, to male and female.
But the most important change that might have affected the outcome is a re-vamping of our security procedures. This was a systemic problem, that in my view, had little to do with whether Hall was a female. By the way, I wouldn't want to fight the Cynthia Hall I've see in the Courtroom. She's a tough lady.
Nichols was a man on a mission. At least one of his hostages said he was like a "commando"- calm, efficient, capable, and deadly. He had this thing planned, and executed the plan. A change in who guarded him may have only changed his tactics.
I will say this. I do understand and agree with the need for rigorous physical standards for LE officers. I think they should apply across the board, to male and female.
But the most important change that might have affected the outcome is a re-vamping of our security procedures. This was a systemic problem, that in my view, had little to do with whether Hall was a female. By the way, I wouldn't want to fight the Cynthia Hall I've see in the Courtroom. She's a tough lady.
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