Who carries high-end pistols?
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stevereno1
Member
I would carry a $2000.00 pistol, but I can't find a Glock that costs that much!
stevereno1
Member
I own a "high-end" Kimber. At least it's high end to me. I love that gun. It is for target shooting, keeping clean, and to pass on to my son someday. It is 38 oz unloaded, has a 2 piece feed ramp, internal extractor, and only holds 8 rounds (with wilson combat mags). Not what i want in a ccw weapon. I love 1911's, but glock it the workhorse gun for a civilian carry weapon- at least for me.
I think that ALL guns will most likely shoot bullets every time the trigger is pressed, I know that most pistols are inherently more accurate than the abilities of their owners.
They'll ALL most likely get the job done.
When I write "bells & whistles", I am meaning things like notched rear sights for 1-handed slide manipulation, ambi-safeties, dehorning to decrease chance of snagging on clothing during deployment, tuned extractors, correctly-done throat & ramp, trigger jobs, forged parts, etc. -things that all add a small contribution to reliability & performance. Even if these things each only add 1% more to the function, but which may add another 5-7% culmulative advantage to reliability & performance, wouldn't it be worthwhile?
They'll ALL most likely get the job done.
When I write "bells & whistles", I am meaning things like notched rear sights for 1-handed slide manipulation, ambi-safeties, dehorning to decrease chance of snagging on clothing during deployment, tuned extractors, correctly-done throat & ramp, trigger jobs, forged parts, etc. -things that all add a small contribution to reliability & performance. Even if these things each only add 1% more to the function, but which may add another 5-7% culmulative advantage to reliability & performance, wouldn't it be worthwhile?
Ash
Member
Well, based on what you said, you can get most of that in a nice CZ-85.
Ash
Ash
stevereno1
Member
I carry a korth revolver, and show disdain for anyone who chooses to carry anything else.
P5 Guy
Member
I used to carry my Walther P5 compact or my Walther P88, but the thought of either of these fine handguns sitting in an evidence locker should I have to use them pained me. So, I sold them to collectors and now carry a Glock 26. More firepower than the P5 and a smaller package than the P88 less three rounds.
I feel just as safe and I'd be out a lot less gun should it "get lost" in the locker.
I feel just as safe and I'd be out a lot less gun should it "get lost" in the locker.
IMTHDUKE
Member
I think it's crazy to pay over 3k for a 1911....just go with something a bg would be proud to be shot with.
I carry an older Ed Brown, I paid 1250 for it in about 1991. he used a Colt's commander for the base gun. Why? Because with every load I fit in it, it shoots about 1.5 or so at 25 yards some got MUCH better, my current +p HST carry load will shoot sub 2" in at 50 yards. What does that matter? If I have to, I know I can take someone from behind cover who is shooting at me and make a clean hit.
mljdeckard
Member
directly answering the OP,
I carry a Kimber Custom II, which with night sights installed, cost me about $720. I shot a $2700 Nighthawk ad a local range. I was reminded of Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction. "Wow. That is probably the BEST milkshake I've ever tasted. But it ain't worth $5."
The law of diminishing returns kicks in here. My Kimber will shoot 1.5-2" at 25 yards. The Nighhawk will shoot 1", guaranteed. The extra 1/2-1" of accuracy isn't worth $2k to me.
I also cringe at the idea of using a pistol in a defensive situation, the cops arrive and as they roughly force you to the ground, a probie penalty-kicks your gun away from you across the parking lot. "Hey, I'm going to want that gun bac.........never mind. Keep it."
There are refinements and extra touches you get with the higher pricetag. I don't buy guns for their looks. Maybe when I'm rich I'll change my mind, who knows.
I carry a Kimber Custom II, which with night sights installed, cost me about $720. I shot a $2700 Nighthawk ad a local range. I was reminded of Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction. "Wow. That is probably the BEST milkshake I've ever tasted. But it ain't worth $5."
The law of diminishing returns kicks in here. My Kimber will shoot 1.5-2" at 25 yards. The Nighhawk will shoot 1", guaranteed. The extra 1/2-1" of accuracy isn't worth $2k to me.
I also cringe at the idea of using a pistol in a defensive situation, the cops arrive and as they roughly force you to the ground, a probie penalty-kicks your gun away from you across the parking lot. "Hey, I'm going to want that gun bac.........never mind. Keep it."
There are refinements and extra touches you get with the higher pricetag. I don't buy guns for their looks. Maybe when I'm rich I'll change my mind, who knows.
Feeling as confident as can be in both your own ability to defend yourself AND your hardware performance is paramount in personal safety. If a $300 pistol does it for you, great. If for whatever reason you trust a $1000 gun more than a less expensive one, go with it. Carry what ever makes you feel more capable of shooting straight under stress.
Now, I can't believe some people don't want to carry an "expensive" pistol ONLY because of fear of losing it after using lethal force in self defense. That seems to show that there is something amiss in your view of what could really happen once you go down that legal chute...
Prioritize the the following fears instead:
1) Loss of personal freedom.
2) Loss of house, cars and the kids' college funds due to legal bills and/or civil lawsuits.
It's a lousy world, and it's even worse when you add in lawyers. A one or two thousand dollar pistol is peanuts, nothing compared to what you should prepare yourself to lose/spend in the event you actually have to shoot someone. So, you just shot a person, and you are concerned about a pistol??? Give me a break...
Now, I can't believe some people don't want to carry an "expensive" pistol ONLY because of fear of losing it after using lethal force in self defense. That seems to show that there is something amiss in your view of what could really happen once you go down that legal chute...
Prioritize the the following fears instead:
1) Loss of personal freedom.
2) Loss of house, cars and the kids' college funds due to legal bills and/or civil lawsuits.
It's a lousy world, and it's even worse when you add in lawyers. A one or two thousand dollar pistol is peanuts, nothing compared to what you should prepare yourself to lose/spend in the event you actually have to shoot someone. So, you just shot a person, and you are concerned about a pistol??? Give me a break...
custom pistols for carry
In the late 1980s - 90s I was competing in "action" and IPSC pistol events.
About 1990 I had a custom 1911 made on a Colt stainless frame. It was made to the then-existing IPSC Limited specs. I stopped competing in the mid 90s, and in recent years made a few mods to make it a little more CCW friendly. Last year I put Crimson Trace grips on; the pistol has been professionally maintained, including re-fitting and re-tightening. It is definitely a working pistol and shows some cosmetic signs of practice, competition and carry for more than 15 years.
My practice regimen was roughly 500-700 rounds through this pistol weekly in those days. I trained daily with that pistol for years, and I guess I have a real emotional connection with it - in practice or competition, over tens of thousands of rounds, it never failed to do it's part. It is like an old and faithful friend.
My carry choice is usually dictated by how large a pistol I want to carry - my most frequent carry choice is one of my J frames, or a Kimber Ultra CDP. When I want to carry a full size pistol, however, the big 1911 is special - not because it was expensive or custom, but because it is such a fine piece of machinery, and after all these years together, I would rather have it in my hand in a tight spot than any other pistol.
In the late 1980s - 90s I was competing in "action" and IPSC pistol events.
About 1990 I had a custom 1911 made on a Colt stainless frame. It was made to the then-existing IPSC Limited specs. I stopped competing in the mid 90s, and in recent years made a few mods to make it a little more CCW friendly. Last year I put Crimson Trace grips on; the pistol has been professionally maintained, including re-fitting and re-tightening. It is definitely a working pistol and shows some cosmetic signs of practice, competition and carry for more than 15 years.
My practice regimen was roughly 500-700 rounds through this pistol weekly in those days. I trained daily with that pistol for years, and I guess I have a real emotional connection with it - in practice or competition, over tens of thousands of rounds, it never failed to do it's part. It is like an old and faithful friend.
My carry choice is usually dictated by how large a pistol I want to carry - my most frequent carry choice is one of my J frames, or a Kimber Ultra CDP. When I want to carry a full size pistol, however, the big 1911 is special - not because it was expensive or custom, but because it is such a fine piece of machinery, and after all these years together, I would rather have it in my hand in a tight spot than any other pistol.
mljdeckard
Member
But I shot it, felt it, worked it. FOR THE LIFE OF ME, I can't see what that Nighthawk can do that my Kimber can't.
This thread is hilarious.
Cynics know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
If a BG forced the issue at my place he could find himself shot by any one or more of the following in handguns:
A litter of mouse guns. . .
A small herd of .38/.357 revos. . .
A passel of plasticky wundernines. . .
The CZ-52 or 82 C&R jobbers. . .
Any of three 1911A1 "house guns". . .
Or the one Colt Commander that I now have over $2300 tied up in.
This last one is my carry piece.
It didn't start off at $2300, but as a base NRM off the shelfer. Every internal is replaced and hand fitted with top of the line milled bar stock pieces. the extractor is honest to God spring steel just as JMB intended it to be. All of the springs are replaced, from the sear to the recoil spring. The barrel is fitted to the slide, the link to the barrel and slide stop, and the slide to the frame, and the bushing is perfectly mated to the barrel. Still, I left the pistol plenty "loose" for proper function. Novak's shop did the night sights and the cutting for them. A box of ammo and a fee ensured that I had the POA/POI just like I like it.
Why? Was I out impress? Wouldn't my M&P9 or Beretta PX4-9 handle the job of defending me and mine? No and yes.
The Colt is like an extension of my will. If I had to "take the shot" and put one in the BG's forehead as he tried using my daughter as a human shield, you'd best believe the weapon I will use is the one I have cloverleafed a target with on more than one great day at the range.
And were it confiscated in the aftermath and I never saw it again?
It's done it's duty. It performed up to the task that all of the resources that were put into it were intended to accomplish. Like a highly trained dog that gives its life for you in extremis is how I'd go about it. There'd still be a pack of dogs in the safe, but never another quite like the one that was lost.
Then I go back to my breeders and start looking for my next perfect companion.
It's entirely about the admittedly small difference between adequate and extraordinary.
A samurai, cavalier, or other swordsman would know that some swords work better for him than do others, even if they all looked similar or all could perform the basics.
Variables of all kinds actually matter to the serious combative disciplines practitioner. He would know, after years of experience, training, and handling the weapons of instructors, comrades and fallen enemies, exactly what it was in a weapon that allowed him the most effortless performance and efficacious results.
And were he not lucky enough to find his personal Excalibur at random off of the displays at the smith's he'd pay dearly to have a master craftsman give him that performance edge in the weapon of his choosing if he could but afford it.
This is not to say that such a weapon would be trained with to the exclusion of all others, but a normal human will give the favorite the best drilling hours he has. Proficiency costs time and a great weapon, one that is thoroughly mastered, maximizes the return on the investment.
A lot of that appreciation for marginal but still substantive performance gains has been lost on pistoleers, many of whom are cheapskate bangers with lowest common denominator weapons not unlike the crudest sword out of the barrel in the armory in days of yore.
At least many riflemen and shotgunners still appreciate that proper customized fit and other nuances bought and paid for with cash and long training hours will return blessings in ultimate performance.
Since I am not a high bucks rifle shooter (C&Rs) or shotgunner, (Mossies and beater Ithacas), I guess I thank the instructors at The Pedoy School of Escrima in Honolulu for my early developed appreciation of a fine weapon. The money I have tied up in a small number of knives would make some people go wide-eyed with amazement, several of them costing more than run of the mill duty pistols.
In escrima, any weapon will do, and at the higher levels of training, which I do not have, anything can be a weapon, from the empty hand, to the three ring binder on a desk, to the power cord pulled from the monitor.
However, my instructors there always left me with the impression that whether one was talking about a rattan or hardwood stick, a bolo or other knife, even one as lowly as the machete, you wanted to have the best one you could lay your hands on within reason.
If you have the stick that won't break first, the knife with the best balance, edge, and toughness, or the even the best bottle in a bar brawl, you have an incremental edge over your opponent.
The small qualitative difference in weapons is no panacea, but might add up to be just enough to win in a lethal encounter.
Sorry about being long winded, but it's always about more than the cash for the serious buyer who isn't doing it for the bling factor. My best watch cost me $100.00 and I drive an ancient Jeep that gets me where I want to go. Would Rolex do better than my Skagen or my Timex beaters? Who cares? I'e never needed precision time keeping that mattered. Driving is just something I have to do, though to others it's way more than that.
I reserve that type passion for my best weapons and my spending reflects it.
Cynics know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
If a BG forced the issue at my place he could find himself shot by any one or more of the following in handguns:
A litter of mouse guns. . .
A small herd of .38/.357 revos. . .
A passel of plasticky wundernines. . .
The CZ-52 or 82 C&R jobbers. . .
Any of three 1911A1 "house guns". . .
Or the one Colt Commander that I now have over $2300 tied up in.
This last one is my carry piece.
It didn't start off at $2300, but as a base NRM off the shelfer. Every internal is replaced and hand fitted with top of the line milled bar stock pieces. the extractor is honest to God spring steel just as JMB intended it to be. All of the springs are replaced, from the sear to the recoil spring. The barrel is fitted to the slide, the link to the barrel and slide stop, and the slide to the frame, and the bushing is perfectly mated to the barrel. Still, I left the pistol plenty "loose" for proper function. Novak's shop did the night sights and the cutting for them. A box of ammo and a fee ensured that I had the POA/POI just like I like it.
Why? Was I out impress? Wouldn't my M&P9 or Beretta PX4-9 handle the job of defending me and mine? No and yes.
The Colt is like an extension of my will. If I had to "take the shot" and put one in the BG's forehead as he tried using my daughter as a human shield, you'd best believe the weapon I will use is the one I have cloverleafed a target with on more than one great day at the range.
And were it confiscated in the aftermath and I never saw it again?
It's done it's duty. It performed up to the task that all of the resources that were put into it were intended to accomplish. Like a highly trained dog that gives its life for you in extremis is how I'd go about it. There'd still be a pack of dogs in the safe, but never another quite like the one that was lost.
Then I go back to my breeders and start looking for my next perfect companion.
It's entirely about the admittedly small difference between adequate and extraordinary.
A samurai, cavalier, or other swordsman would know that some swords work better for him than do others, even if they all looked similar or all could perform the basics.
Variables of all kinds actually matter to the serious combative disciplines practitioner. He would know, after years of experience, training, and handling the weapons of instructors, comrades and fallen enemies, exactly what it was in a weapon that allowed him the most effortless performance and efficacious results.
And were he not lucky enough to find his personal Excalibur at random off of the displays at the smith's he'd pay dearly to have a master craftsman give him that performance edge in the weapon of his choosing if he could but afford it.
This is not to say that such a weapon would be trained with to the exclusion of all others, but a normal human will give the favorite the best drilling hours he has. Proficiency costs time and a great weapon, one that is thoroughly mastered, maximizes the return on the investment.
A lot of that appreciation for marginal but still substantive performance gains has been lost on pistoleers, many of whom are cheapskate bangers with lowest common denominator weapons not unlike the crudest sword out of the barrel in the armory in days of yore.
At least many riflemen and shotgunners still appreciate that proper customized fit and other nuances bought and paid for with cash and long training hours will return blessings in ultimate performance.
Since I am not a high bucks rifle shooter (C&Rs) or shotgunner, (Mossies and beater Ithacas), I guess I thank the instructors at The Pedoy School of Escrima in Honolulu for my early developed appreciation of a fine weapon. The money I have tied up in a small number of knives would make some people go wide-eyed with amazement, several of them costing more than run of the mill duty pistols.
In escrima, any weapon will do, and at the higher levels of training, which I do not have, anything can be a weapon, from the empty hand, to the three ring binder on a desk, to the power cord pulled from the monitor.
However, my instructors there always left me with the impression that whether one was talking about a rattan or hardwood stick, a bolo or other knife, even one as lowly as the machete, you wanted to have the best one you could lay your hands on within reason.
If you have the stick that won't break first, the knife with the best balance, edge, and toughness, or the even the best bottle in a bar brawl, you have an incremental edge over your opponent.
The small qualitative difference in weapons is no panacea, but might add up to be just enough to win in a lethal encounter.
Sorry about being long winded, but it's always about more than the cash for the serious buyer who isn't doing it for the bling factor. My best watch cost me $100.00 and I drive an ancient Jeep that gets me where I want to go. Would Rolex do better than my Skagen or my Timex beaters? Who cares? I'e never needed precision time keeping that mattered. Driving is just something I have to do, though to others it's way more than that.
I reserve that type passion for my best weapons and my spending reflects it.
Ash
Member
And so, those who do otherwise are the simpleton, careless, crude and obviously less capable lot who grab the sword out of the armory barrel. Ah, if only I were a real warrior.
Interesting that you chose to compare yourself to a cavalier (though Ronin Samurai is probably more to your liking). You do know that a cavalier was the term for the royalists supporting King Charles I in England during the civil war against the parliamentarians and Oliver Cromwell? They were the high-born supporters royalists who were fond of fashionable, extravagant clothing and were less capable swordsmen, being more bling than anything else. Before that it was a a swaggering boastful swordsman but in no way related itself to to capability. Do you mean Chevalier, the french word for knight? Such as the song Chevalier du table rounde? A knight perhaps was your term?
In any case, I tip my hat and bow to the more capable. There are far greater shots than I on these boards and I count myself in good company when discussing the topics. I'm glad you find yourself in possession of such a fine weapon and the money devoted to it. Doubtlessly it will do for you what my humble-yet-100%-reliable EAA will not do for me. But then, I suppose, that makes me something other than a serious buyer. Or does it?
Ash
(If the above post seems too harsh, it is intended to be pithy and not a flame)
Interesting that you chose to compare yourself to a cavalier (though Ronin Samurai is probably more to your liking). You do know that a cavalier was the term for the royalists supporting King Charles I in England during the civil war against the parliamentarians and Oliver Cromwell? They were the high-born supporters royalists who were fond of fashionable, extravagant clothing and were less capable swordsmen, being more bling than anything else. Before that it was a a swaggering boastful swordsman but in no way related itself to to capability. Do you mean Chevalier, the french word for knight? Such as the song Chevalier du table rounde? A knight perhaps was your term?
In any case, I tip my hat and bow to the more capable. There are far greater shots than I on these boards and I count myself in good company when discussing the topics. I'm glad you find yourself in possession of such a fine weapon and the money devoted to it. Doubtlessly it will do for you what my humble-yet-100%-reliable EAA will not do for me. But then, I suppose, that makes me something other than a serious buyer. Or does it?
Ash
(If the above post seems too harsh, it is intended to be pithy and not a flame)
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1911 guy
Member
The two pistols I carry.
I've got two pistols that I switch back and forth. Both are 1911's, both are 5" barrels, both have beavertail grip safeties, beveled mag wells, good sights and decent triggers. One is a full blown custom build, the other is a filipino made Charles Daly. Both run great with any ammo.
I've got two pistols that I switch back and forth. Both are 1911's, both are 5" barrels, both have beavertail grip safeties, beveled mag wells, good sights and decent triggers. One is a full blown custom build, the other is a filipino made Charles Daly. Both run great with any ammo.
Cost is not a consideration for me in carrying. I carry everything from a Bulgarian Makarov I bought for $140 to an HK P7M8 I bought LNIB for $850 several years ago which is clearly worth more that $1K now, and everything in between. My everyday carry is a CZ-75D PCR that I paid $319 for in 2000. If I loose any of these because I had to use them I would gladly forget about it because it probably saved my life.
Don't put words into my mouth. I did also say that some people find their Excalibur off of the rack. However, most only fool themselves into thinking they have. They've settled "for good enough" and just don't acknowledge it. The point I was making is that people who move on from that point travel a well trodden path that has more to do with realizing possibilities than mere vanity.
I wasn't comparing myself to anything. I was only providing examples of fellows who might have, with reason, cared more than the average joe because they depended on their tools in life or death situations. I could have used carpenters, fly fishermen, motorcycle racers, or any other group who have among their number a subset of people who will seek to maximize performance. Even some of the cavaliers were capable swordsmen.
Wow, are you thin skinned or what? I am not the best shot to stride the world or prowl these boards, but I have spent thousands on mundane reloads and thirty years of pretty regular range time find out what I am capable of.
Ancillary to that is that I have found exactly what I want in my primary sidearm. It won't do anything your Witness will not from a mechanical standpoint, but for me I would have a much higher level of confidence in my customized tool over any out of the box pistol, even other ones I own and have also fired extensively.
I know which handgun gets me the most lead on target in the shortest span of time. It's not a Witness, but if i floats your boat, there's nothing wrong with that either.
But tell me something. If you ever put night sights or aftermarket grips on your EAA, or get a trigger job, have you moved from the practical weapon to the impractical bauble?
I'd say you'd customized your favorite and good on you for doing so. There'd be no snobbery or envy from me. I know people who've heavily customized Ruger SP-101 revolvers. Some would say they've only put lipstick on a pig, but I think they sought to wring out maximum performance from their favorite platform.
That many of them also look fantastic is a byproduct, not the end in itself.
mljdeckard
Member
Still waiting to hear what the Nighthawk can do that my Kimber can't do.
astark
Member
I just purchased my first 1911 for conceal carry and wanted to get something I felt confident would work, and I could be proud of to own. Saturday I put 250 flawless rounds through her right on target and it shoots even better than it looks.
Would another less expensive firearm have worked as well for me, I doubt it. But then again, I'm a Newbie and don't have near the experience to know otherwise either.
Would another less expensive firearm have worked as well for me, I doubt it. But then again, I'm a Newbie and don't have near the experience to know otherwise either.
Attachments
Nothing. I just like the looks of the Nighthawk. Had nothing to do with reliability/vanity, etc. My most expensive pistol is a Springfield Loaded lightweight $700. It is my carry piece. I practice with it often and am comfortable having it by my side.
Do I intend to buy that Nighthawk anytime soon? No.
If I do, it would be for a safe queen/target pistol. I would be too anal in having it scratched/marred. I just wanted to know who carries these more pricey guns as a carry piece. Unfortunately, the ones who did step forward are getting blasted. If they choose to carry a $1500+ weapon, fine. I have no problem with it. Is a less than $1500 pistol inferior? Well I hope not, otherwise a LOT of us, including myself, are in a lot of trouble.
Here's the one I was referring to:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411534743
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