Why does everyone hate on condition-2 carry for 1911's?

[mljdeckard]

I HAVE found my safety off one time. It was carrying in a fanny pack. To this day, I don't know if I forgot to safe it, or if my daily moving around worked it off somehow. SO, I use the policy, if I'm carrying in a place where I can't easily draw or check the weapon, I leave the hammer down. The extra time to draw from a fanny pack makes the motion use in cocking it negligible anyway. When I carry IWB or shoulder, it's always condition 1.

 

[jeeper01]

Actually, there has been considerable evidence presented in this forum in past threads that the 1911 was NOT designed to be carried in Condition 1 but was intended by the Department of the Army to be carried in Condition 3 and often carried by soliders in Condition 2.

rbernie thank you for making this point. Too many people now days believe C&L is the only acceptable way to carry a 1911. (not that it doesn't have it's place)

The assumptions about what john browning would do are also a bit tiresome.. its disrespectful to put words in a dead guys mouth and no one seems to have documentation of this so you might as well call it your own speculation

Personally I am an advocate of condition 3. If I felt the need to save that 1 second between drawing and firing I would move somewhere safer. It would be stressful to live life on that short a hair trigger (mentally speaking). With that in mind I also like condition 2 because it gives you an extra round and 1 handed operation. This thread was just to find the reasoning behind the hatred of condition 2, I'm not trying to start an argument about which is better or trying to change any of your ways.

For those who are uneasy with manipulating the hammer (very understandable). Are you equally reluctant to decock a beretta 92 or a CZ without a decocker?

 

[David E]

carry it in a holster that is molded to prevent the safety from coming off. Problem solved.

Unless you have an ambi safety and your cover garment sweeps it off. I have had that happen.

I no longer carry 1911s with ambi safeties.

That's your choice, but totally unnecessary IF you pick the right holster to carry your ambi-safetied 1911 in.

The KyTac BraveHeart absolutely prevents inadvertant safety diesengagement while holstered, ambi or not.

 

[JTQ]

Interesting debate. I don't use Condition 2 because I feel it is less safe than Condition 1 or Condition 3. I also feel it has no advantages over the other two options. This is not to say you can't use Condition 2 if you have some need or valid rational for using it or just because you can.

When I rode a motorcycle, I always wore a full face helmet, leather jacket and gloves, jeans and boots. You could make the argument I would have better vision without the helmet and less fatigue without all the heavy gear, especially in the hot summer months. All are possibly true, but why not just use the safety devices available to you, especially if they make it easier to operate the equipment?

 

[jon_in_wv]

There is a difference between intention and DESIGN. It may have been intended to have been carried by soldiers in condition 3 but it was designed to be carried safely in condition one. I would like to see evidence that it was not designed to be carried in condition one.

 

[rbernie]

I don't use Condition 2 because I feel it is less safe than Condition 1 or Condition 3

The 1911 has an intertial firing pin, i.e. a firing pin that is shorter than the slide recess that houses it and which is retained to the rear of its recess by a spring. The only way for the firing pin to strike the primer of a chambered round is if the hammer smacks the back of the firing pin, forcing it forward against its return spring. The only way that can happen is if the hammer is cocked, either on the half-cock notch (which should NEVER BE DONE) or fully cocked, and then released and allowed to strike the firing pin with enough energy to overcome the spring pressure and drive the firing pin forward.

If the hammer is down on the firing pin stop in Condition 2, the firing pin cannot protrude into the chamber and (since the hammer is resting on the stop on the end of the slide) there is no way for the hammer to impart any energy to the firing pin and cause a discharge. Condition 2 is the safest possible way to carry the pistol and still have a round in the chamber, since there is ZERO possibility of any impact or manipulation short of cocking the weapon to cause it to discharge.

Say what you will about Condition 2 being slower or unnecessary, and I'd probably agree. But you cannot declare it less safe, because it is very very safe.

I would like to see evidence that it was not designed to be carried in condition one.

Recently discussed here, as I alluded to earlier in the thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441143
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415221

Search is your friend.

 

[Gryffydd]

If I felt the need to save that 1 second between drawing and firing I would move somewhere safer.

Huh? So you think it's worth it to carry a gun where you are, but you don't think if you ever need to use the gun you'll need to use it quickly? How exactly does the level of danger in your area affect how quickly you'll need the gun *if* you need it, rather than just affecting how likely you are to need it?

Anyway, here's my take. I don't care about intentions. I care about implementation.
Condition 3: Too slow, too much manual effort/things to go wrong under duress. No real advantage unless you let small children play with your gun or something.
Condition 2: Too slow. The 1911 hammer was not designed to be cocked in a hurry. Compare it to your average single action revolver hammer. Some are better than others, but it's an awfully small thing to be manipulating while trying to draw and fire under stress. Then there's the manually lowering a hammer on a loaded chamber. And what's the advantage again? That it's safer than having A. your safety somehow come off, and then B. Your grip safety get depressed and then C. your trigger pulled at the same time?
Condition 1: Just as safe as the other two, but you can draw and fire quickly.

It's not so much that I "hate on" the other two, it's just that they have disadvantages but no real advantage.

 

[Eyesac]

Because there is no legitimate reason to carry a 1911 in condition 2

Exactly. I'm not going to cock anything if I get in a "badguy-has-a-knife/gun-fight" and is stabbing/shooting me. Think your gun is unsafe? Fix it, or don't carry it.

 

[rbernie]

The 1911 hammer was not designed to be cocked in a hurry. Compare it to your average single action revolver hammer. Some are better than others, but it's an awfully small thing to be manipulating while trying to draw and fire under stress.

Not as JMB designed it. It's been narrowed and rounded over the years to its current incarnation, but the big ol' wide spur hammers of the original 1911 were hellafast to cock.

(from http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=CS342)

I can cock mine (I have three that I've retrofitted with an 'old school' wide spur hammer) while drawing from a fanny pack, and right quick. It's not as fast as drawing in Condition 1 from a strong-side belt holster, but it's not significantly slower.

And some folk just can't seem to get their head around the notion that SOMETIMES YOU CANNOT CARRY on body. Sometimes, you have to throw the pistol in the glove box or a backpack or something similar. In those cases, Condition 2 is very useful.

Sticking to the dogma of Condition 1 carry will eventually let you down.

 

[Gryffydd]

It's been narrowed and rounded over the years to its current incarnation, but the big ol' wide spur hammers of the original 1911 were hellafast to cock.

True, but you really don't see those very often anymore, unless someone does it aftermarket... I suppose I should have said "Today's typically seen 1911 hammers were not designed..."
But even with the wider spur, it's still an action that takes your hand out of firing position, and still has the potential of getting messed up.

With the mil-spec (small) size of my thumb safety on my carry 1911, combined with the amount of effort needed to switch it off, combined with grip safety, I have complete confidence with my 1911 in condition one in my glove box or backpack. I might think differently about my Colt Series 70 Mk IV, with its extended thumb safety which requires MUCH less pressure to deactivate, but that grip safety is still a very comforting extra layer.

Sticking to the dogma of Condition 1 carry will eventually let you down.

Once I find a situation where I think something else is actually better I'll be happy to use it. So far, Condition 1 has pretty much always made the most sense--for me.

 

[rbernie]

But even with the wider spur, it's still an action that takes your hand out of firing position, and still has the potential of getting messed up

Actually, I draw with the right hand (strong side hand) as usual and cock the pistol with my left thumb as I slide my weak hand into a supporting position. It's really not hard, and it's the same motion that I use with my revolvers.

So far, Condition 1 has pretty much always made the most sense--for me.

Roger that. Most times, it does make the most sense.

Until it doesn't, and you'll know it when you get there.

 

[ROBBY.1911]

wait a minute, here...

...if your gun has a beavertail grip safety, there is probably nothing more dangerous. if it is a GI configuration you are mch better off. a properly fit thumb safety should put you at ease about condition one.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Rbernie, I would consider the 1911 in its current configuration WITH a thumb safety to be the one we are talking about. The fact the prototype didn't have one has little merit to the conversation. The fact it that it DOES have the manual safety for the purpose of condition 1 carry so it is in fact DESIGNED to be safely carried in condition 1 as one of its carry modes. Stop reading into it so much, it CAN be carried other ways but it can safely be carried in condition one so, they point is, carry it in condition one. The OPs original intent was a discussion of condition TWO which I would think we can agree not as safe due to the design. The only exception would be the series 70 style with the firing pin lock. IN that case I guess it would be equally safe in all modes but tactically it would be more sound to carry it ready to go in condition 1 in my opinion.

 

[rbernie]

The OPs original intent was a discussion of condition TWO which I would think we can agree not as safe due to the design.

Absolutely false. It's the other way around. A hammer that cannot fall cannot strike the firing pin.

The only exception would be the series 70 style with the firing pin lock. IN that case I guess it would be equally safe in all modes but tactically it would be more sound to carry it ready to go in condition 1 in my opinion.

I think that you mean the Series 80 pistols. The Series 70 (and earlier) had no firing pin safety.

 

[John Parker]

Say what you will about Condition 2 being slower or unnecessary, and I'd probably agree. But you cannot declare it less safe, because it is very very safe.

I agree that once it's in position, sure, it's safe and the gun isn't going off. But to put it there, you have to drop the hammer. To drop the hammer, you have to pull the trigger. When you pull the trigger, the gun is designed to go off. Lose control of the hammer and off it goes. No one is perfect, people have had ADs/NDs because of it. Things happen, fingers slip...

 

[rbernie]

Absolutely. Which is why the original hammer, with its wide spur and narrower body, is terrific for manual decocking. Using the pinch method, there is no way to lose control of the hammer unless you literally let go of the hammer altogether.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Absolutely. Which is why the original hammer, with its wide spur and narrower body, is terrific for manual decocking. Using the pinch method, there is no way to lose control of the hammer unless you literally let go of the hammer altogether.
__________________

I think a skeletonized hammer gives you an even better grip. I've "decocked" my Kimber many times with never a slip.

 

[JTQ]

rbernie,

But you cannot declare it less safe

I believe I can much as John Parker mentioned above. Since it is the hammer making contact with the firing pin and the firing pin contacting the primer of a round in the chamber that causes the pistol to fire. In Condition 1, the hammer never comes into contact with the firing pin and you have the thumb and grip safeties preventing that from happening. In Condition 3 there is no round in the chamber which means the pistol can't fire. In Condition 2 you are intentionally putting the hammer on the firing pin and have by-passed the thumb and grip safeties. I Condition 2 unsafe? Maybe not. Is it less safe than Condition 1 and Condition 3? I believe so.

 

[orionengnr]

Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off? I find that scary

That's not a big deal. The grip safety has to be disengaged and the trigger pulled in order to discharge the weapon.
Do a little test. Unload the weapon and cock and unlock. Carry it around the house for several hours then check to see if the trigger has fallen. I'd bet it didn't.

When I first started carying a 1911, a friend (and experienced 1911 carrier) told me that he occasionally found his ambi-safety equipeed Kimber with the safety off (usually after getting into and out of his truck). I wore my Kimber unloaded IWB around the house for a week or two, found the safety off a time or two, and took the 1911 to a good local smith (www.crawleycustom.com) and had the ambi replaced with a single sided safety. No problems from then on.

Now that I've carried a 1911 for a while, I no longer find the idea of a disengaged thumb safety "scary". As long as it is in the holster, it is safe as it can be. The grip safety and firing pin safety are still fully operational, and no-one's finger is on the trigger.

 

[coltoriginal]

Stop reading into it so much, it CAN be carried other ways but it can safely be carried in condition one so, they point is, carry it in condition one. The OPs original intent was a discussion of condition TWO which I would think we can agree not as safe due to the design. The only exception would be the series 70 style with the firing pin lock. IN that case I guess it would be equally safe in all modes but tactically it would be more sound to carry it ready to go in condition 1 in my opinion.

As the OP maybe i should clarify, I know condition 1 is safe. I'm not trying to take it away from you or tell you my way is better for any reason (i mean no offense). I'm just making the point that Condition 2 is also safe despite increasingly frequent internet propaganda stating otherwise.

most beretta 92's and CZ's are regularly decocked with thumbs and its no different on a 1911. And as stated previously the hammer rests on the slide not just the pin so its not going to strike anything anyhow.

Huh? So you think it's worth it to carry a gun where you are, but you don't think if you ever need to use the gun you'll need to use it quickly? How exactly does the level of danger in your area affect how quickly you'll need the gun *if* you need it, rather than just affecting how likely you are to need it?

Is this a serious question? I'm a civilian and god forbid i do not live in mortal fear every second of every day about a sudden attack where the fraction of a second needed to rack the slide is going to be life or death. Does that mean i'm unworthy to carry a 1911 at all? If however you live in the slums of a Hollywood movie and get held at gunpoint daily, or are part of a military operation then yes that fraction of a second is probably very valuable. In that regard, level of danger would dictate my state of readiness, yes.

 

[rbernie]

Since it is the hammer making contact with the firing pin and the firing pin contacting the primer of a round in the chamber that causes the pistol to fire.

JTQ - your scenario can never happen, and (sorry to be blunt) your description of things is utterly incorrect. This is not how the 1911 (and many other pistols) is designed at all.

Post #31 explained CLEARLY how the firing pin can NEVER contact the hammer and protrude into the chamber at the same time. IT'S TOO SHORT.

 

[Clarence]

I for one cannot understand why this issue is constantly being debated.

I ONLY carry in Condition 1 and would rather carry a DA revolver than a 1911 in condition 2 or condition 3.

Here is THE perfect reason that Condition 2 should be avoided at all costs.............IMO: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=441761

 

[JTQ]

What scenario are you talking about?

My description you quote is the ignition sequence of the 1911. It is the same as nearly every pistol. The only difference between putting the pistol in Condition 2 and shooting the pistol is the speed at which the hammer is lowered. The hammer does not touch the firing pin in Condition 1 and there is no round in the chamber in Condition 3. For those reasons I consider both safer than Condition 2.

 

[David E]

JTQ, the 1911 has a rebounding firing pin. This means that when struck by a hammer falling from full cock, there is enough enertia to overcome the tension of the firing pin spring. Then, the firing pin travels beyond the firing pin hole in the breech, striking the primer.

Once this is over (nano-second), the firing pin spring recovers from the compression and returns the firing pin to its normal position, which is inside the firing pin channel. It does NOT protrude past the breech face as you seem to conclude.

So, with the hammer fully forward, the firing pin is NOT protruding out, and does NOT rest against the primer of a chambered round.

To test this fact, take a primed case and chamber it. Lower the hammer. take a non-marring mallet and beat the snot out of the 1911 hammer. If your gun is within specs (I'd be shocked if it were not) the primer will not detonate.

 

[BlindJustice]

I carry Condition 1 a lot, but sometimes in condition 3, empty chamber
but keep it cocked so when racking the slide if need be
I don't have to overcome the 23 lbs Main Spring.

Also, I have a 75B and lower the hammer on it manually for
DA first shot, it's fairly easy to do thjis, not as strong a
mainspring - with the stronger mainspring it's tough for me
to lower the hammer to the half cock position so I never
do a COnd. 2 carry,

Randall