It seems only fair to post some updated information on the Seecamp Co. I used to have Seecamp .32 and it was fine. I sold it for other reasons, not least what I could get for it at the time. I did have problems trying to contact Seecamp back then for information and accessories. Problems but not total lack of success. A letter worked. Phone calls and faxes did not. I think anyone interested in Seecamps should pay a visit to http://www.seecamp.com/ and read about the company, the history, the products and visit the f.a.q. and read the forums. It will give a broader picture of the weapons, the company, the problems, and what has been done to make things better. Larry Seecamp is very forthright about all of it. Obviously, for any business it is difficult to overcome past problems with customers and we all have to live with what we do and don't do. But before only listening to customer complaints that go back in many cases ten years, do yourself a favor and at least give the other side a fair hearing. They really are pretty slick little pistols and, BTW, the .32 version is now selling at around the "normal" price of $400 give or take a little. It is now the .380 version that is demanding scalper prices. In a free market, an item is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it, no more, no less. I'm seriously thinking of one of the new .32s again, not for need but just for pleasure of owenership. I don't work for Seecamp. I don't know Larry Seecamp. I don't even own one, but the seecamp website alone indicates to me that things at the Seecamp company are much more in control today than they were a few years ago. A company that is still disorganized and run from the cuff would not, could not devote the time and effort to maintain such a well run website, IMO.
Why is the Seecamp so popular?
- Thread starter idahoberetta9000s
- Start date
- Status
Larry is a very nice and down to earth guy. If email doesn't work his web sight will. There is a section called Ask Larry Seecamp Questions. He always answers. If there is a problem he will make it right. I also do not work for him but do love his product.
Some people live in areas where 5 months out of the year you can expect temperatures fro 90 to 110 degrees.
A good quality stainless seecamp with decent ammo is ideal for those who
could not otherwise carry a full caliber weapon due to heat..sweat...clothing options etc...
I don't think stupid enters into it.
saltydog452
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,707
I wish those folks well. But, what happened, actually did happen. It wasn't dreamed up. "Fair" implies some kind of mutual understanding and agreement. Nothing in my experience even approached 'mutual'.
They could have answered the phone, net, voice msgs, return self-addressed envelope, whatever..It didn't happen..It was rude, arrogant, and complacent. And all I wanted was to order a couple of replacement recoil springs.
The spring became battered and the pistola didn't function. I needed another recoil spring..Didn't happen..I had an overly expensive paperweight..Traded both pistols ( with disclosure to buyer ) for legal service..
I don't feel all 'warm and fuzzy' about this. If things have changed, great. However, its not gonna erase history.
Incidently, it would seem kinda ironic that Seecamp's enlightment regarding Customer Service and price structure comes on the wake of increased competition. Now, it would seem, they're acknowledging some errors in their past thinking, and answering the phone.
One aspect of a 'free market' is competition.
It seems to work.
salty.
They could have answered the phone, net, voice msgs, return self-addressed envelope, whatever..It didn't happen..It was rude, arrogant, and complacent. And all I wanted was to order a couple of replacement recoil springs.
The spring became battered and the pistola didn't function. I needed another recoil spring..Didn't happen..I had an overly expensive paperweight..Traded both pistols ( with disclosure to buyer ) for legal service..
I don't feel all 'warm and fuzzy' about this. If things have changed, great. However, its not gonna erase history.
Incidently, it would seem kinda ironic that Seecamp's enlightment regarding Customer Service and price structure comes on the wake of increased competition. Now, it would seem, they're acknowledging some errors in their past thinking, and answering the phone.
One aspect of a 'free market' is competition.
It seems to work.
salty.
I am not looking to start another caliber debate, but I think we can all agree that the Seecamp is a well known example of an extreme weight to power compromise. Since I had to carry a hammer concealed in High School Vocational training due to gang threats, concealment has been a specialty of mine. I am only 19, so as of yet I have not been able to carry a concealed handgun, but what I can say is that I can without fail conceal my boker A-F dagger underneath bike riding spandex. I also know a guy who carrys a full sized 1911 in a shoulder holster year round, wearing big t shirts in the summer. Interestingly, he carries a seecamp in his pocket.
Selecting a carry gun is a personal choice, and its only my opinion that seecamps are not much better than nothing. At the very least, I suppose the presence of a .32 will scare off many attackers.
Selecting a carry gun is a personal choice, and its only my opinion that seecamps are not much better than nothing. At the very least, I suppose the presence of a .32 will scare off many attackers.
1 old 0311
member
Hi Salty,
That is my story EXACTLY.
Kevin
That is my story EXACTLY.
Kevin
saltydog452 said:
Salty,
You are absolutely correct. In spite of the fact that I just posted an "apology" for Seecamp's problems, there is nothing in your post I disagree with. It is a truism that once a customer has been "turned off" and lost, it is a near impossibility to get that customer back. It is also true that one disgruntled customer will tell many times the number of people about his bad experience than the happy customer will tell of his great experience. I know that Smith and Wesson, for example, has been a very, very hard sell to me for some time because of past bad feelings. Very hard to overcome. I still like the Seecamp, though. Go figure...LOL.
mr.trooper
Member
Why is Seecamp Still so popular?
Beats me...
Beats me...
saltydog452
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,707
Hello Gary,
Due to its small size, there has to be some tradeoffs. Other than the fact that the recoil springs needed to be changed every 2-3 hundred rounds, I had no problems with the pistol. I did/do have a problem with the folks who ignored their customers.
I 'spect there were lots of guys/gals in uniform who counted on the little pistola for a last chance back-up. That was a big portion of Seecamp market. I hope none of them had similar problems.
Heck, all I needed was a couple of recoil springs. Had they been willing to answer either the 'phone or the mail, I doubt that we would be having this conversation.
My North American Arms 'Guardians' are a bit larger, but no so much as to require different holsters. They work and I have access via land line or the 'net to the company. My 'Guardians' are the older model. NAA has offered an upgrade..gratis.
As I mentioned, I wish the Seecamps well. Its good that someone has finally taken charge and appears to be attempting to keep the faith with their customers.
'Nuff said..Truce?
salty.
Due to its small size, there has to be some tradeoffs. Other than the fact that the recoil springs needed to be changed every 2-3 hundred rounds, I had no problems with the pistol. I did/do have a problem with the folks who ignored their customers.
I 'spect there were lots of guys/gals in uniform who counted on the little pistola for a last chance back-up. That was a big portion of Seecamp market. I hope none of them had similar problems.
Heck, all I needed was a couple of recoil springs. Had they been willing to answer either the 'phone or the mail, I doubt that we would be having this conversation.
My North American Arms 'Guardians' are a bit larger, but no so much as to require different holsters. They work and I have access via land line or the 'net to the company. My 'Guardians' are the older model. NAA has offered an upgrade..gratis.
As I mentioned, I wish the Seecamps well. Its good that someone has finally taken charge and appears to be attempting to keep the faith with their customers.
'Nuff said..Truce?
salty.
usp9
Member
Because it's the best...
The Seecamp is popular because it is possibly the finest pocket gun available. It is the gold standard every other pocket gun is held to. I like mine because it works everytime I pull the trigger. It works with a variety of ammo...I've used WST, of course, CorBon, Hydra Shok, and Hornady with a 100% success rate.
There are many myths and misunderstandings surrounding the Seecamp, some of which I've seen here on this thread. I would invite anyone interested in learning something other than heresay to visit the forum at Seecamp.com.
There a many fine guns available today, some because of the popularity of the Seecamp, and that is good. If you ever have the chance to actually shoot a Seecamp and not rely on heresay, or be pissed off by the greed of your gundealer, you can readily see and feel the high quality.
By the way...the absence of sights is not a problem for us afficianados, we learn how to shoot without them, and quite well if I do say so.
The Seecamp is popular because it is possibly the finest pocket gun available. It is the gold standard every other pocket gun is held to. I like mine because it works everytime I pull the trigger. It works with a variety of ammo...I've used WST, of course, CorBon, Hydra Shok, and Hornady with a 100% success rate.
There are many myths and misunderstandings surrounding the Seecamp, some of which I've seen here on this thread. I would invite anyone interested in learning something other than heresay to visit the forum at Seecamp.com.
There a many fine guns available today, some because of the popularity of the Seecamp, and that is good. If you ever have the chance to actually shoot a Seecamp and not rely on heresay, or be pissed off by the greed of your gundealer, you can readily see and feel the high quality.
By the way...the absence of sights is not a problem for us afficianados, we learn how to shoot without them, and quite well if I do say so.
goalie
Member
usp9 said:
[hands napkin]You've got a little Kool-aid on your lip there.[/hands napkin]
carebear
Member
[giggle]napkin[/snort]
usp9
Member
Goalie, Carebear thanks
Your contribution to the thread and obvious knowledge of firearms is stunning. Thanks for imparting such wisdom.
Your contribution to the thread and obvious knowledge of firearms is stunning. Thanks for imparting such wisdom.
carebear
Member
My take on the the Seecamp LWS 32 is that it was unique in its time due to its combination of incredibly small size with a caliber larger than the ubiquitous .25's. Apparently very popular among UC officers and agents because it expanded the number of places a "real" gun could be carried surreptitiously.
This "elite" image combined (if not created out of whole cloth) with its boutique, hand-crafted appeal was talked up by gunwriters and created a gotta-have-one market among the general gun owning public. Seecamp's low production numbers then almost became an asset, as scarcity increased its mystique and the dealer hiked pricing raised its "snob appeal".
Competitors in size and caliber took a while to appear, due in part to the import restrictions of '68, but when they did, their greater availability, typically lower cost and comparable quality caused a decrease in the market for the over-priced by dealers and back-ordered by the factory Seecamps.
The situation has somewhat stabilized, with the Seecamp retaining some of its boutique appeal (hand crafting and being first does deserve respect) over the usually cheaper upstarts but with the actually charged prices, delivery times and QC/customer service improving.
They are fine shooting little guns, the 3 or so (LWS 32's) I've tried were easy to handle and pointable. Their lack of sights is not a detriment to real precision in the 10-15 foot range.
But, that's all pretty general knowledge for anyone who's been shooting for 20 odd years and spent a decade in the industry.
Now, if you'd like some help off your high horse, just ask.
This "elite" image combined (if not created out of whole cloth) with its boutique, hand-crafted appeal was talked up by gunwriters and created a gotta-have-one market among the general gun owning public. Seecamp's low production numbers then almost became an asset, as scarcity increased its mystique and the dealer hiked pricing raised its "snob appeal".
Competitors in size and caliber took a while to appear, due in part to the import restrictions of '68, but when they did, their greater availability, typically lower cost and comparable quality caused a decrease in the market for the over-priced by dealers and back-ordered by the factory Seecamps.
The situation has somewhat stabilized, with the Seecamp retaining some of its boutique appeal (hand crafting and being first does deserve respect) over the usually cheaper upstarts but with the actually charged prices, delivery times and QC/customer service improving.
They are fine shooting little guns, the 3 or so (LWS 32's) I've tried were easy to handle and pointable. Their lack of sights is not a detriment to real precision in the 10-15 foot range.
But, that's all pretty general knowledge for anyone who's been shooting for 20 odd years and spent a decade in the industry.
Now, if you'd like some help off your high horse, just ask.
usp9
Member
Now that was a post...almost
Thanks for a thoughtful, reasoned post. I too am an avid, long time, (38 years), gun enthusiast.
With which part of my first post did you find fault? I like the Seecamp and tried to explain why as per the thread topic. Maybe your just riding a newbie, I don't know, but what kool ade and my answer have in common is beyond me. If that's a high horse, so be it.
Thanks for a thoughtful, reasoned post. I too am an avid, long time, (38 years), gun enthusiast.
With which part of my first post did you find fault? I like the Seecamp and tried to explain why as per the thread topic. Maybe your just riding a newbie, I don't know, but what kool ade and my answer have in common is beyond me. If that's a high horse, so be it.
carebear
Member
usp,
I should apologize. It got my dander up when you wrote
My post was in fact neither informative nor particularly contributory so I wouldn't argue with the rest of your comment. It was earned.
Do keep in mind that just because I or others (or you in the future) don't choose to write a treatise everytime we post, it doesn't mean we can't. This is as much a community as a strict information center.
At any rate, I wasn't laughing at you, I just haven't seen the "kool aid drinker" comment applied that way and I found it clever.
Which leads to the "kool aid drinker" thing. I think it started with Dean Spier referring to the cult-like and fanatical devotion to the then new Glock pistols some shooters had/have. KAD's will deny reality rather than (in the case of glocks) admit the term "perfection" is a marketing line, not an actual immutable law of the universe.
Your defense of Seecamp (other's personal experience is just "myth and misunderstanding") and the hyperbole used, "finest pocket gun", "gold standard", could easily be interpreted to put you in the "unable to view Seecamp objectively" category. It was a very KAD-type post, which is what goalie was remarking on.
Now he could have challenged your word choices and given you the chance to moderate your stated opinions about Seecamp supremacy (and the backhanded "aficiandos don't have problems" insult) but gun board experience teaches one that that is usually not a high-percentage move with an apparent KAD.
Plus, his comment was way funnier than a counter post would have been.
For my part, I do apologize for getting my back up. If you care for an unsolicited suggestion, moderate your terminology when defending a favorite gun and you'll get fewer rolling eyes and more consideration of your valid points. Welcome to THR. Feel free to throw my own words back in my face in the future whereever appropriate or funny. It helps keep me honest.
I should apologize. It got my dander up when you wrote
in particular. That's arrogant, thus the high horse comment.
My post was in fact neither informative nor particularly contributory so I wouldn't argue with the rest of your comment. It was earned.
Do keep in mind that just because I or others (or you in the future) don't choose to write a treatise everytime we post, it doesn't mean we can't. This is as much a community as a strict information center.
At any rate, I wasn't laughing at you, I just haven't seen the "kool aid drinker" comment applied that way and I found it clever.
Which leads to the "kool aid drinker" thing. I think it started with Dean Spier referring to the cult-like and fanatical devotion to the then new Glock pistols some shooters had/have. KAD's will deny reality rather than (in the case of glocks) admit the term "perfection" is a marketing line, not an actual immutable law of the universe.
Your defense of Seecamp (other's personal experience is just "myth and misunderstanding") and the hyperbole used, "finest pocket gun", "gold standard", could easily be interpreted to put you in the "unable to view Seecamp objectively" category. It was a very KAD-type post, which is what goalie was remarking on.
Now he could have challenged your word choices and given you the chance to moderate your stated opinions about Seecamp supremacy (and the backhanded "aficiandos don't have problems" insult) but gun board experience teaches one that that is usually not a high-percentage move with an apparent KAD.
Plus, his comment was way funnier than a counter post would have been.
For my part, I do apologize for getting my back up. If you care for an unsolicited suggestion, moderate your terminology when defending a favorite gun and you'll get fewer rolling eyes and more consideration of your valid points. Welcome to THR. Feel free to throw my own words back in my face in the future whereever appropriate or funny. It helps keep me honest.
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Well, with all this talk of Seecamps pro and con, I must admit that just yesterday I put my dibs on a NIB late-serial number Seecamp .32 with an extra magazine still sealed in its factory wrap. Do I "need" it? No. Are there many other options for its niche? Yes. But when I fondled a used one at the same shop, it reminded me why I had purchased one years ago in the first place. It's a beautiful piece of the gunmakers art. IMO. Like a bar of soap.
Those who agree will agree. Those who don't are $400 richer than I am.
Those who agree will agree. Those who don't are $400 richer than I am.
usp9
Member
Honesty from a good man...
Good honest answer. Thanks.
Part of my answer about why the Seecamp is so popular dealt with several commonly held rumors and/ or myths that long term Seecamp owners know are false. Such as;
Cost- Dealers mark up guns to what the market will bear. The unusually high cost associated with Seecamps are due to dealer mark up, not Seecamp prices. I paid $300 for mine. A fair price I think.
Competition- NAA in particular brought out the Guardian to fill market need. Competition is good. Autauga the same. But I still maintain that quality falls to the Seecamp side.
Gun life- I've still got all the original parts after many rounds. Larry Seecamp himself says the .32 spring should last as long as the gun for example.
Accuracy- I'm amazed at how tight the groups are...even strangers shoot well with this gun.
Only shoots Winchester Silver Tips- There are many manufactures now. The deciding factor was OAL of the round. Currently Fiochi, Hydra Shop WST, CorBon, Hornady, and perhaps a few others function well.
Mostly my reply was based on first hand knowedge and my observation that every forum I read and participate on seems to perpetuate these and other falsehoods concerning the Seecamp.
These other forums also seem filled with people discussing how their firearms only needed one or two returns to the manufacturer to get it right. They buff this, upgrade that, replace the other, fire 200 breakins, etc, etc. That sort of adjustment is absent from most Seecamp discussions. They tend to work well right out of the box. Larry claims to have NEVER charged for a repair...to me that is impressive.
I've carried a gun for almost 30 years. I've looked hard at other guns...KelTec, NAA, Kahr, Walther, Beretta, all fine firearms. Just none have impressed me as much as the little, 100% reliable Seecamp. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks again for the genlemanly reply. I learned something, and that is always a good thing.
Good honest answer. Thanks.
Part of my answer about why the Seecamp is so popular dealt with several commonly held rumors and/ or myths that long term Seecamp owners know are false. Such as;
Cost- Dealers mark up guns to what the market will bear. The unusually high cost associated with Seecamps are due to dealer mark up, not Seecamp prices. I paid $300 for mine. A fair price I think.
Competition- NAA in particular brought out the Guardian to fill market need. Competition is good. Autauga the same. But I still maintain that quality falls to the Seecamp side.
Gun life- I've still got all the original parts after many rounds. Larry Seecamp himself says the .32 spring should last as long as the gun for example.
Accuracy- I'm amazed at how tight the groups are...even strangers shoot well with this gun.
Only shoots Winchester Silver Tips- There are many manufactures now. The deciding factor was OAL of the round. Currently Fiochi, Hydra Shop WST, CorBon, Hornady, and perhaps a few others function well.
Mostly my reply was based on first hand knowedge and my observation that every forum I read and participate on seems to perpetuate these and other falsehoods concerning the Seecamp.
These other forums also seem filled with people discussing how their firearms only needed one or two returns to the manufacturer to get it right. They buff this, upgrade that, replace the other, fire 200 breakins, etc, etc. That sort of adjustment is absent from most Seecamp discussions. They tend to work well right out of the box. Larry claims to have NEVER charged for a repair...to me that is impressive.
I've carried a gun for almost 30 years. I've looked hard at other guns...KelTec, NAA, Kahr, Walther, Beretta, all fine firearms. Just none have impressed me as much as the little, 100% reliable Seecamp. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks again for the genlemanly reply. I learned something, and that is always a good thing.
1 old 0311
member
Hi usp9,
Well I have to admit Larry didn't charge me to fix my pistol. He just refused to return my calls, or mail, SO I COULD GET IT FIXED. When I bought it NIB it was broken, it stayed broken, I sold it broken, and as far as I know it still is. That policy does cut down on warranty repairs
Kevin
Well I have to admit Larry didn't charge me to fix my pistol. He just refused to return my calls, or mail, SO I COULD GET IT FIXED. When I bought it NIB it was broken, it stayed broken, I sold it broken, and as far as I know it still is. That policy does cut down on warranty repairs
Kevin
saltydog452
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,707
usp9,
One thing that carebear, and most other members of The High Road, will not do is 'ride a newbie'.
Since we aren't talking face-to-face, if occasionally a post from a new member just sounds kinda juvenile, it may be assumed that the poster is indeed juvenile. 'If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck,..etc.', well, you get the idea.
This is an international meeting place open to anyone who can read. No one here has over-inflated egos. It would be helpful if a new poster didn't start out with one.
I did. And found myself on the receiving end of a 'reminder' from one of the moderators that this is The High Road.
What I posted regarding my experiences with the Seecamps is absolutely true. Not a 'myth' or 'hear-say'. I didn't overdose on a bad batch of enchiladas and chili and dream this stuff up.
The recoil springs did not 'last the life of the pistol'..more like a couple or four hundred rounds. Thats no problem..as long as I can get replacements. It didn't happen. Maybe I got one of a bad batch of springs, I dunno. I really can't imagine Mr. Seecamp saying that recoil springs last indefinitely.
I really don't want to continue this bantering about regarding the Seecamps. They have had some great ideas. Untill recently, Customer Service wasn't one of them.
salty.
One thing that carebear, and most other members of The High Road, will not do is 'ride a newbie'.
Since we aren't talking face-to-face, if occasionally a post from a new member just sounds kinda juvenile, it may be assumed that the poster is indeed juvenile. 'If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck,..etc.', well, you get the idea.
This is an international meeting place open to anyone who can read. No one here has over-inflated egos. It would be helpful if a new poster didn't start out with one.
I did. And found myself on the receiving end of a 'reminder' from one of the moderators that this is The High Road.
What I posted regarding my experiences with the Seecamps is absolutely true. Not a 'myth' or 'hear-say'. I didn't overdose on a bad batch of enchiladas and chili and dream this stuff up.
The recoil springs did not 'last the life of the pistol'..more like a couple or four hundred rounds. Thats no problem..as long as I can get replacements. It didn't happen. Maybe I got one of a bad batch of springs, I dunno. I really can't imagine Mr. Seecamp saying that recoil springs last indefinitely.
I really don't want to continue this bantering about regarding the Seecamps. They have had some great ideas. Untill recently, Customer Service wasn't one of them.
salty.
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usp9
Member
Salty & Kev
salty said --"That said, I think that the Kool-Aid just dripped onto your bib along with the Jell-O."
----------------------------------------
Such intelligent retort. Are you always so articulate? You had a bad experience...what has that got to do with my reply to the original post?
------------------------------------------
Kevin -- We all know your undying hatred for Seecamps. Much of what you have claimed has been shown to be less than 100% accurate or not related to the quality of the gun. I'm begining to think you must have shot yourself with a Seecamp and blamed the gun, as on this forum as well as others you've shot yourself in the foot more than a few times with bogus claims against Seecamp.
salty said --"That said, I think that the Kool-Aid just dripped onto your bib along with the Jell-O."
----------------------------------------
Such intelligent retort. Are you always so articulate? You had a bad experience...what has that got to do with my reply to the original post?
------------------------------------------
Kevin -- We all know your undying hatred for Seecamps. Much of what you have claimed has been shown to be less than 100% accurate or not related to the quality of the gun. I'm begining to think you must have shot yourself with a Seecamp and blamed the gun, as on this forum as well as others you've shot yourself in the foot more than a few times with bogus claims against Seecamp.
1 old 0311
member
Hi usp9,
bo-gus/adj. sham;spurious.
I couldn't get my pistol fixed because they REFUSED to answer the phone, return calls, or mail. Read the above posts this was not isolated IT WAS COMPANY POLICY. Larry ADMITS THIS. I bought a crap pistol from a crap company. My mistake. Won't happen again. I also find it humorous that Larry, and friends, must resort to personal attacks as a way of dealing with their customers. You two learned your lessons well from Bill Clinton; If facts are not on your side attack the accuser. If you guys spent as much time answering phones, and doing quality control, as you do on the gun sites, this discussion would not be taking place. Your product would speak for itself. Sadly with their history of lack of customer servive it does.
I am finished with this. Anyone thinking of a Seecamp can read the posts, and make their own decission.
Kevin
Kevin
Kevin
bo-gus/adj. sham;spurious.
I couldn't get my pistol fixed because they REFUSED to answer the phone, return calls, or mail. Read the above posts this was not isolated IT WAS COMPANY POLICY. Larry ADMITS THIS. I bought a crap pistol from a crap company. My mistake. Won't happen again. I also find it humorous that Larry, and friends, must resort to personal attacks as a way of dealing with their customers. You two learned your lessons well from Bill Clinton; If facts are not on your side attack the accuser. If you guys spent as much time answering phones, and doing quality control, as you do on the gun sites, this discussion would not be taking place. Your product would speak for itself. Sadly with their history of lack of customer servive it does.
I am finished with this. Anyone thinking of a Seecamp can read the posts, and make their own decission.
Kevin
Kevin
Kevin
There have been a lot of interesting and varied responses on this thread regarding the Seecamp, its virtues, its flaws, and the customer service or lack thereof of the company. Some folks love 'em. Some folks thought they would love 'em or they wouldn't have bought 'em. Some have had good experiences and others not so good. For the life of me, I can't understand why these experiences would cause the spleen so in evidence in this thread. It is what it is, or at least it was what it was. Hey, no one is forced to buy anything. I have made more than a few mistakes in purchasing that cost me money, time, and nuisance. Most of those mistakes I've all but forgotten. Life to too durned short to get really upset about it. I am not an employee of Seecamp. Not a friend of Larry Seecamp (don't know the man). Not related to anyone connected to Larry Seecamp. Not a kool-aid drinker. Don't wear a bib and don't eat Jello. I am beginning to think when I read similar posts on different forums repeatedly frothing about one bad purchase experience from several years ago that there is more to the story than has yet been revealed but maybe not. I agree with the Guardian fans, though. I love mine. I like Kel-Tecs too. I do read and do make my own decisions. Sometimes I am wrong. Nothing to get apoplectic about.
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