Why join the NRA, anyway?

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MicroBalrog

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Why join the NRA, anyway?

Today, it is almost ubiquitous for gun rights supporters to ask people to join the NRA – in the end of practically every sermon they deliver to their pistol-packing choir. Well, this is my official responds to these pastor: the NRA will get membership money from me when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers. See, the NRA leadership is the sort of people that no thinking Second Amendment supporter would support – ever.
You’re probably shifting colors into the infra-red spectrum in your comfy seat out there in Virginia, but there’s a whole bunch of totally logical reason for a true supporter of freedom not to join the NRA. Let’s look at it rationally.
According to the NRA, they are a “civil rights groupâ€. In fact, they are obviously not a civil rights group – certainly not one defending the Second Amendment. Type www.nra-ila.org into your Web browser. Right at the top of the screen, you will see the words of the Second Amendment: “A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed†On the same website the NRA officials claim to support “existing gun control lawsâ€.
Now, what sort of civil rights group would support laws that violate the Bill of Right? Can you imagine the ACLU saying “we support enforcement of existing decency protection bills†and refuse to defend Larry Flint? Can you imagine Amnesty saying “we support enforcement of existing apartheid lawsâ€? Try searching LaPierre’s or Heston’s speeches for the word “repealâ€. It’s not there. It’s not in the NRA dictionary.
Speaking of apartheid, the NRA often mention the fact (and it IS a fact) that many of today’s gun laws were targeted at putting African-Americans at a disadvantage. Yet at least one member of the NRA Board of Directors os visibly racist. Here’s a remark by Ted Nugent: "Apartheid isn't that cut and dry. All men are not created equal.†Now, I like The Nuge. Fact is, I’m listening to his songs as I write this. But he’s a racist – which is in itself not a crime – but when racists start leading “civil rights†groups, something is deeply wrong.
The NRA is the world’s largest “gun lobbyâ€. It has four and a half million members. Yet it spends half as much money on D.C. lobbying as the GOA with it’s 450,000 members. When a group ten times smaller than the NRA spends twice as much money, something is deeply wrong.
The NRA also claims to have been supporting gun rights for the last 133 years. Let’s see, The NRA-ILA has been active since 1975, protecting civil rights(at least sometimes). Before that, the NRA has been active in relation to Federal legislation in 1932 (when they helped several states to create the Uniform Machinegun Act – which set the framework towards the NFA).
In 1934, the then-president of the NRA spoke before Congress to say that the Second Amendment “didn’t matter†as concerning the NFA. Ask yourself – why no NRA help in US vs. Miller? Because this 133-year old organization thinks the Second Amendment doesn’t matter. Mind you, the main reason Miller’s attorney didn’t show up at the trial was because he an Miller couldn’t afford to print the brief – or travel to D.C. If somebody has given them the money, perhaps today we wouldn’t be spending millions to stop people from being put in prison over a flash suppressor.
In 1968, the NRA has advocated a seven-day waiting period on handguns. Note: this is more than what Feinstein wants today – Feinstein wants five days. Can’t you just see the ACLU pushing for adding limitations on campaign financing to the CFR bill? Yeah, right.
Not that the NRA doesn’t have successes, mind you. One of the big NRA successes is Project Exile – zero-tolerance enforcement of federal gun laws. The NRA is dead set on putting anybody who has a felony conviction but has a gun in prison. (By the way, they lie when they say Project Exile only includes violent felon). For those unfamiliar with how Project Exile works, here’s a quote from David Holthouse’s analysis of Project Exile in Colorado: “The majority of the defendants -- 154 out of 191 -- have no violent felonies on their records; two were illegal aliens with no criminal record at all. Among the 37 who do have a history of violence, seventeen did not use a gun in their previous crime. This means that just slightly more than one in ten of the prohibited persons prosecuted under Project Exile -- twenty out of 191 -- has a proven history of gun violence.†Violent gun felons, right? That’s very truthful of you, Mr.LaPierre. This is not an assault.
So, given that the NRA is today’s equivalent of Microsoft in the gun liberty market – I think the time has come to go Unix.

P.S. The United Kingdom has a National Rifle Association, too!
 
Micro, before the Great Harlon Carter, rest in peace, Uncle, the NRA was nothing more than a social club. In 1977, the NRA was about to pack up and move out to where Hayzeus left his zapatos in Colorado Springs and get out of D.C.

One man, one man singlehandedly forced the NRA membership to realize that they must become involved in politics. That man's name is Harlon Carter. We could use Harlon Carter again and always.

Today there is an internal struggle over the direction of the NRA. The hunters want something for nothing. The sporties want "services" and free stuff and are not interested in civil rights. I remember my first ILA meeting right after the Clinton gun ban. The flabby flannel from the NRA droned on about PR money (oh, there were at least a dozen questions about "where's mine?" from different hunting groups braying for handouts) and even took time to admonish JPFO for putting up those "awful" billboards which analogized civil rights opponents to Adolph Hitler. It was going "too far" said the NRA rep.:rolleyes:

The small minority of the NRA want to fight for our freedom. We are horribly outnumbered. So be it. We will pull the wagon, the rest will sit on their backsides and whine when we point this out. So be it. I know of no other or more effective way to fight.

If you wish to ensure that the NRA is about civil rights and not about serving hunters, write a check and join me in pulling the wagon. Reach out and educate. Better to pay in gold and sweat than in blood.:)
 
Micro, the notion that the NRA has been fighting for our rights since 1871 is incorrect. Puffery perhaps, but incorrect.

The UMA was supported by some in the NRA. However, the NRA took no official position on the NFA. Before 1977, there was very little interest in politics by the NRA.

1977. Harlon Carter changed it all. If only Harlon Carter had been around 50 years earlier.:(

BTW, you should join the NRA because of its numbers and to help me change its focus. I need all the help I can get!:D
 
Well put, El T.

Micro - Then go Unix and don't worry about Microsoft. It's a free market. Microsoft does not have to fail or repent for selling MS-DOS 3.0 in odrer for Unix to succeed. The NRA is not using its monopoly power to squeeze out GOA, SAS, SAF, JPFO, etc. Thanks for sharing your opinion, though.
 
MicroBalrog...

"Well, this is my official responds to these pastor: the NRA will get membership money from me when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers."

You don't want to join the NRA, fine with me. Just keep spouting all that KABA stuff.

Angry talk, old assertions, and bluster do not a 2A supporter make.
 
However, the NRA took no official position on the NFA

WRONG. The then NRA president testified during the hearings.

Roy Lucas actually dug up the Congressional Records, and according to my conversations with Shamaya, KABA is busy OCRing it all.

Micro, the notion that the NRA has been fighting for our rights since 1871 is incorrect. Puffery perhaps, but incorrect.

Which is my point.

BTW, even if I had an internationally-valid card and sufficient income, I believe only US members may vote for NRA Pres., and there's some weird bylaws to end reform.
 
"Roy Lucas actually dug up the Congressional Records, and according to my conversations with Shamaya, KABA is busy OCRing it all."

Which leads a whole lotta credance to the charge that KABA is more interested in attacking the NRA then doing anything concrete to unite firearms owners.

Thanks for proving our point.

Have a nice day.
 
Which leads a whole lotta credance to the charge that KABA is more interested in attacking the NRA then doing anything concrete to unite firearms owners

I would argue that there's a whole lot more value to having the 200+ pages of debate on the First Major Federal Gun Law(tm) available than just one sentence, but you know what?

Fine. Shamaya is the greatest scum that ever walked the earth.

Roy Lucas is the devil's left hand, and I am one of the fabled Four Horses of Apokalypse.

Now, what does the moral character of Shamaya have to do with my point?

Did the NRA President NOT say that the 2A does not matter, back then in 1934 (or something to that air, I don't have the records in my hand now), or did he? THAT is the point.
 
MicroBalrog...

Lying about what another person said about a third person is a very dishonest method of debate. If "lying" is too strong a word, then let's substitute "misleading other people about what was said or inferred", okay?

"Fine. Shamaya is the greatest scum that ever walked the earth."

I have never made a judgement nor a statement, moral or otherwise about Angel. I have never met the man. My only comments have been directed towards his tactics and insistance on attacking the NRA.

"Roy Lucas is the devil's left hand, and I am one of the fabled Four Horses of Apokalypse."

I have never heard of Roy Lucas before so any inference to my having said anything about him is pure fabrication.

BTW, which of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse do you fancy yourself to be? Famine, Pestilence, Destruction, or Death (thanks to Grantland Rice)? I do not recall refering to you in any such terms. What I have said is very clear and is available for all to see.

"Now, what does the moral character of Shamaya have to do with my point?"

Since you brought it up, you tell us.

I did not think that I was going to enjoy this thread but it appears that I was wrong. It may be fun to watch your diatribe go up in smoke like a Howard Dean candidacy. When challenged you immediately attack and mislead. Perhaps your message is not that strong?

There are many ways to protect our 2A rights. The NRA's original charter (in an age where 2A attacks were unheard of) was to promote marksmanship training and competition. This it did very well and by all accounts they were successful and shooting sports and gun ownership were commonly accepted. Very few people realized what lay ahead.

You might want to read "Revolt in Cincinnatti" by Joseph Tartaro to see just when the NRA did wake up to the threat and worked to change it's focus.

No one has ever said that the NRA is perfect. But those who criticize and attempt to divide us by group are as much a threat to our rights as the liberals who attack us all outright.

And I will continue to point out where KABA does this.
 
BTW, even if I had an internationally-valid card and sufficient income, I believe only US members may vote for NRA Pres., and there's some weird bylaws to end reform.

So you're bad mouthing the way an organization is run, and you don't belong to it? Kinda like bad mouthing a politician and not voting, you don't have a lot of ground to stand on.

I understand not liking the NRA, lots of people feel that way, thats why there are other 2A groups to support. Send them money.

Oh wait, you're not subject to US laws at the current time? Want them better for when you come here? Send money. Can't vote in an NRA election? ..me either, I renew my membership annual, that doesn't carry voting rights. But they'll still let me send a donation to NRA-ILA, GOA hasn't turned down any money either. I'm sure they would welcome a donation even if you're not a member or not currently in the US.

even if I had an internationally-valid card and sufficient income,

Oh thats right, you don't have money...so you don't like the way an organization is run and you don't like the way it spends other peoples money? Tough.

NRA isn't perfect. What is?

Smoke
 
"Why join the NRA, anyway?"

Because now, in the year 2004, they are the largest, strongest pro-gun group in the US, and therefore probably the world. If every gun owner in the country, or even every fifth gun owner in the country joined the NRA, we *could* repeal some of the old and absurd laws.

Tim
 
The NRA is the world’s largest “gun lobbyâ€. It has four and a half million members. Yet it spends half as much money on D.C. lobbying as the GOA with it’s 450,000 members. When a group ten times smaller than the NRA spends twice as much money, something is deeply wrong.

In the 2000 election cycle, GOA spent $4.1 million on lobbying and the NRA spent only $1.23 million on lobbying - of course during the same period, the NRA also put up another $1.4 million in soft money to the GOAs $0 and made another $1.57 million in PAC money compared to the GOAs $83k. It also did all of this with a charter that prohibits the NRA from using any of its $30 membership fees for anything beyond promoting safety and sports - unlike GOA which gets to use all of its membership fees for political lobbying.

It also neglects the point that GOA spent its money on five in-house lobbyists and the NRA spent a much smaller amount to hire 35 lobbyists and six different law firms.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65465&highlight=NRA

Ask yourself – why no NRA help in US vs. Miller? Because this 133-year old organization thinks the Second Amendment doesn’t matter.

Or maybe because Miller was on the lam and a few weeks short of being dead and under the rules at that time no case was presented on his behalf?

Most of your critique of the NRA is of an NRA that was entirely a sport-shooting organization (like IPSC or IDPA - how much lobbying have they done lately and why don't we criticize them for it?). In fact, of all of your criticisms, only Project Exile has happened since the NRA developed a lobbying wing in the late 70s.

I have to ask why you think the NRA of 2004 should be made to pay for the mistakes of the NRA of 1934 when it is abundantly clear that the NRA of today is a much different organization - in no small part because people got involved and changed the NRA instead of walking away and fragmenting into many small but politically meaningless factions.

The membership of all gun rights groups combined is less than 5% of the people who voted in the last election - even though gun owners make up between 60-75% of potential voters. If your strategy for advancing the RKBA is for all gun rights groups to fight over that 5% of the pie, then you are going to lose.
 
El Tejon...

"I favor re-directing the focus of the organization instead of gnashing my teeth and rendering my garments."

This thread is taking a decidedly Biblical turn, don't you think?

It was started by a guy in Israel, who thinks he's one of the Four Horsemen, and you are trying to keep away from Old Testament forms of penance?

Truly breath-taking. :D
 
I have never made a judgement nor a statement, moral or otherwise about Angel.

That was a moment of sarcasm directed to KABA-basher. It doesn't MATTER what tactics Angel uses. It is still the truth that the NRA or people on its bankroll supported UMA-32, NFA-34, GCA-68, FOPA-86, Project Exile, Project Safe Neigborhoods, seven-day wating periods...

Suddenly, I want to give Sarah Brady a warm hug.
 
the organization took no official position.

Not what they say:

"The NRA supported The National Firearms Act of 1934 which taxes and requires registration of such firearms as machine guns, sawed-off rifles and sawed-off shotguns. ... NRA support of Federal gun legislation did not stop with the earlier Dodd bills. It currently backs several Senate and House bills which, through amendment, would put new teeth into the National and Federal Firearms Acts." —American Rifleman, March 1968, P. 22

who thinks he's one of the Four Horsemen

Did they ban Senses of Humour in America when I was offline?:D
I prefer Destruction, though.:neener:
 
MicroBalrog...

"That was a moment of sarcasm directed to KABA-basher."

I take that as a compliment. :D

Most of the charges you are hurling (good word, it aptly describes KABA tactics) have been cussed and discussed at length in other threads and when properly examined it seems that the NRA was often forced to support less than what we wanted in order to keep from getting even worse legislature passed. Many times because only a very few of us were in the fight.

How many times have KABA representatives been on national TV to take on the very much anti-gun media?
 
In the 2000 election cycle, GOA spent $4.1 million on lobbying and the NRA spent only $1.23 million on lobbying - of course during the same period, the NRA also put up another $1.4 million in soft money to the GOAs $0 and made another $1.57 million in PAC money compared to the GOAs $83k.

Lesse:

GOA spending: 4.183 million
NRA Spending: 2.8 million (do I understand correctly that "made another 1.57 million" means income and not spending?)
 
NRA was often forced to support less than what we wanted

Oh, I see.
Someone forced the NRA to come up with Project Exile.
Someone forced the NRA prez to come to the hearings and say 2A doesn't matter.
Someone forced Ted Nugent to say "Apartheid isn't all cut and dry".
Someone forced American Rifleman to print announcements that the NRA supported 7-day waiting periods back in the 1960's.

I see. Now it's all clear. I shall now slink away and hide in a corner.

Oh thats right, you don't have money...so you don't like the way an organization is run and you don't like the way it spends other peoples money? Tough

That's why you have freedom of speech. I have the right to try and persuade other people not to give the NRA money. You have a problem with the fact I serve in the IDF and have less money than you? Tough.:D :D
 
"I see. Now it's all clear. I shall now slink away and hide in a corner.'

Please don't, it's fun watching you squirm as your points are invalidated one by one.

"Someone forced the NRA to come up with Project Exile."

The url below might show you where Project Exile started (hint: it WASN'T the NRA as you infer). The original intent of PE was to target violent felons, as such it was right. Are you going to blame the NRA for every well-intended law/program which is abused by others? Or are you in favor of letting violent criminals go about their business until they kill someone?

You can't support a right without supporting the responsibility(ies) which go along with it.

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/profile38.html
 
Please show how Project Exile has affected ONLY violent felons.

Or are you in favor of letting violent criminals go about their business until they kill someone?

You're only a violent criminal when you commit violent crimes. And, yes, I believe that when criminals serve their time, ALL their rights should be restored.
 
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