rocinante
Member
The only S&W poly autos that seem to get good reviews are the new M&P. What did they do so wrong with the Sigmas and the Walther hybrids and the rest of their poly offerings? Are they that bad?
Why no love for S&W poly autos?
- Thread starter rocinante
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I had a walther s&w and liked it but the problem is that it was not a fully suported chamber and I had a side case blow out. I am no big fan of chambers that are not fully suported. The sigma was nothing more than expensive copy of glock to most folks. M&P is just really late on the sceene for polly guns and again too expensive for todays economy. Actually now that I think of it smith auto loaders as a whole are just not really popular. The all metal guns got a nich in Law enforcement because they had better safety features than 1911's and hi-powers in the early days of "lets get rid of revolvers"
I'd say from the constant and neverending posts on the M&P plastic pistol on THR and other forums, yeah, it's a popular and well accepted autoloader.
The Sigma has never gained popularity for two reasons: It's low priced so people generally think "low price equals low quality" and it has a 1,000 pound trigger pull.
As for the metal framed Smith & Wesson autoloaders, they're double action/single action. The striker fired and double action only designs are what's selling now. The only company that seems to get away with DA/SA is Sig and to a lessor extent Beretta with the 92 or M9 series.
As for the price, give or take, the M&P costs the same as a Glock or Springfield Armory XD. The Sigma quite a bit more less.
Just my own personal observations.
The Sigma has never gained popularity for two reasons: It's low priced so people generally think "low price equals low quality" and it has a 1,000 pound trigger pull.
As for the metal framed Smith & Wesson autoloaders, they're double action/single action. The striker fired and double action only designs are what's selling now. The only company that seems to get away with DA/SA is Sig and to a lessor extent Beretta with the 92 or M9 series.
As for the price, give or take, the M&P costs the same as a Glock or Springfield Armory XD. The Sigma quite a bit more less.
Just my own personal observations.
leaving the sigma out of it...are you kidding?
The M&P groupies take every chance to peddle the greatness of the gun. It seems to have lots of love...this police force is using it...that police force is using it...etc, etc.
Now Glock guys don't do this you understand.
The M&P groupies take every chance to peddle the greatness of the gun. It seems to have lots of love...this police force is using it...that police force is using it...etc, etc.
Now Glock guys don't do this you understand.
Defintely true. That said, I also see a lot of folks starting to really appreciate the quality of the older Smith metal frame guns. With all of the police trade-ins there seems to be a resurgence in interest in these guns, myself included. They have stellar reputations for reliability and service. They may not have the high tech aspects of today's polymer guns, but they are tried and true workhorses that have proven themselves with decades of meritorious service. Few semi-autos have served as well.
As to the Smith/Walther guns, cost defeintely had something to do with it, and if someone was going to drop the bucks they'd go with the Walther. It's a shame as owning both SW/Walthers and Walthers I consider the Smith version to be pretty much equal to the full Walther. Many Walther fans wouldn't agree with that, but having shot both side-by-side I don't see a lot of difference, and if you want a .45 as I did the Smith is the only game in town.
I've also heard some say that Smith didn't give the SW99 the marketing attention that it should have and that the introduction of the M&P interfered with the SW99 marketing efforts. I'm not so sure of that as the two guns don't really seem to have overlapped each other in timing.
The Sigma has had a bad rap since day one, especially as it was compared to the Glock, and that crappy trigger. I've heard that the gun has improved greatly but that the trigger still stinks. That said, my last trip to the outdoor range I witnessed a shooter doing some incredible work with a Sigma (a .40, I think) out at 85 yards.
wally
Member
Don't forget the ill will generated by the previous owner's deal with the Clinton's.
New management has repudiated the deal, and what more can they do to PO the anti's than offer a rebate of two free hi-cap mags with an M&P or Sigma purchase (two free crippled 10-rounders for the non-Free states) so you end up with the pistol and four mags (three spares).
The metal S&W autos are fine if you like DA/SA guns. Model 59 was my first auto loader, traded it once I learned I'd never like DA/SA operation. Regret getting rid of it though.
Current production Sigmas are very good for the money if you can get by the trigger, lousy by most plastic pistol standards, but decent if compared to say Taurus revolvers firing DA. If you fire the Sigma, you really wanted to
--wally.
New management has repudiated the deal, and what more can they do to PO the anti's than offer a rebate of two free hi-cap mags with an M&P or Sigma purchase (two free crippled 10-rounders for the non-Free states) so you end up with the pistol and four mags (three spares).
The metal S&W autos are fine if you like DA/SA guns. Model 59 was my first auto loader, traded it once I learned I'd never like DA/SA operation. Regret getting rid of it though.
Current production Sigmas are very good for the money if you can get by the trigger, lousy by most plastic pistol standards, but decent if compared to say Taurus revolvers firing DA. If you fire the Sigma, you really wanted to
--wally.
romeo212000
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The sigma has a horrible trigger. They may have made some corrections to the new ones being produced but i know the old ones had a lot of firing pins and springs breaking.
For lack of a better description, there is also the issue of consumer expectations.
Let's say Ferrari started making pickup trucks. Nothing too fancy, just pretty solid half ton trucks. Would someone in the market for a pickup consider Ferrari? Where is the nearest Ferrari dealership to them, even?
I think this is part of it. When I think S&W, I primarily think of revolvers. When I go to most gun stores, they may have, at best, one S&W pistol for every three or four S&W revolvers.
Let's say Ferrari started making pickup trucks. Nothing too fancy, just pretty solid half ton trucks. Would someone in the market for a pickup consider Ferrari? Where is the nearest Ferrari dealership to them, even?
I think this is part of it. When I think S&W, I primarily think of revolvers. When I go to most gun stores, they may have, at best, one S&W pistol for every three or four S&W revolvers.
Definitely cheaper...not sure about the "better triggers." Care to name an example?
S&W is definitely one of the quality manufacturers. You can see it in the machinings. Taurus machined parts have tool marks and curled pieces of steel left on parts. I know. I have one. If you get a good Taurus it can be a great gun. However, you are more likely to get one with issues than you would if you bought a S&W, Beretta or Sig.
Mortech
Member
I love the M&P , as for the older 2nd and 3rd gen S&Ws I grab all I can afford . Some how I just can't let my self buy a Sigma , its that damned trigger , sometimes I feel I have to use a comealong to shoot one .
ColinthePilot
Member
A Friend bought a sigma in 9mm. He hated the trigger but did a trigger job and now the trigger is great, but the 1-2 jams per magazine has him wanting to sell now. He also walked away from the range the other day with green hands because his green polymer frame color was wearing off on his hands.
I do also, and I think that the gun gets one heck of a lot of respect.
I'm in that mode as well having just picked up a 645, 3913, 5943 SSV, 5906, 4586 and a 4516-1 if it's still there when I get back to the shop. The police trade-ins clean up wonderfully with a little scour pad and steel wool or light buffing.
rocinante
Member
As the OP I exempted the M&P from the no love list. So far it seems to be an unqualified winner. When I move to poly world it is definitely on my short list of pistols to consider.
I have a S&W 915 and love it. Even for the economy model I think it is a damn fine handgun. Reliable, accurate, eats and fires anything. I want a 5906 to go with it and share magazines.
So Sigma is the sour? The trigger can not be ignored.
I have a S&W 915 and love it. Even for the economy model I think it is a damn fine handgun. Reliable, accurate, eats and fires anything. I want a 5906 to go with it and share magazines.
So Sigma is the sour? The trigger can not be ignored.
Sorry, I missed that! As to the M&P, Smith got this one exactly right.
Yup, gotta love those common magazines. As to the economy models, I was looking at a 457 and I was very impressed. Maybe a bit more plastic than I'd like to see on a Smith, but they are fine guns. I'll opt for the 4516-1 instead, but that 457 (or 908) is still on my mind. What I'd also like is a primo Model 39.
As to Smith and politics, I think there can be no doubt that the Clinton compromise hurt them and the foreign ownership did as well. I really hate seeing locks on their revlvers (all of my Smith revolvers are pre-lock) and I was so danged happy when I got my M&P .357 sans lock. I think more than anything it's the principle of the thing.
One way or the other I certainly see a resurgence in S&W and I suspect a good part of it has been thanks to the M&P as well as all of the police trade-in 2nd and 3rd Gen guns that have and still are hitting the market. Hopefully not all of those departments are going to Glocks
Early Sigmas not only had terrible triggers they had a habit of tearing up I had one in 1998 that required 5 months and 3 trips back to Smith before they gave up and replaced the gun.
I think they have got everything right on the M&P and I may buy one.
I think they have got everything right on the M&P and I may buy one.
Nice job on the trigger, eh?
Leave them alone and they are 100% reliable. I have cautioned people against modifying the triggers because doing so not only voids the warranty but can affect reliability. The most effective trigger mod may result in light primer strikes, and the more common/easy mods may result in the sear not resetting so you may never get the trigger to break on a follow up shot. This is all ok for a range queen but not for a SD weapon.
I guess I am on the opposite end of the spectrum. I hate that SA hair-trigger on 1911 type guns. I think it's a good thing to have to really mean it when you pull the trigger on a SD gun.
lazyeye
Member
My college doommate had a .40Sigma. The trigger was heavy, and it was hard to control.
But if someone offered me one at a good price I'd buy one
But if someone offered me one at a good price I'd buy one
As a long time “student” of Sigmas, I think they originally started getting a bum rap by the Glock fans (how dare they copy a Glock)! If you get one of the later “E” (enhanced) models I see no problem with ‘em, and (from research) I doubt the earlier models had any more problems than Glocks etc.
I checked out the M&P since everybody raves about it, and I gotta confess I just don’t get it-kinda looks like a “gussied up” Sigma to me?
I know…I had a lot of folks in here tell me why the M&P was better than the Sigma, but other than a couple of possible points (out of around 10), I really don’t see it (if the Sigma fits my hand, why do I need changeable backstraps)?
Anywho…lots of folks gripe about the trigger but I have no problem with it, especially in a defensive weapon. I’ve seen way too many folks come to a gunsmith wanting to do some trigger work, and after he checks it out and asks ‘em what they’re using it for (self-defense) he advises they leave it alone. Sounds like wise words to me, as I think there are way too many folks looking for a hair trigger on a defensive weapon.
Personally I have no problem with the Sigma trigger-I pull it, the gun goes BANG, and the groups are tight (no FTF or FTE so far).
Not to pick on Glocks (never an option with me since they don’t fit my hand), but when doing my research before buying my first Sigma, I recall a couple of things the Sigma had over the all-mighty Glock, the most important being it was designed for a 40S&W so subsequent calibers were overbuilt. From what I understand, the Glock was designed as a 9mm and the subsequent calibers were built from the 9mm design-I think I like the Sigma approach better.
Course, I am a pragmatist, which puts me at odds with the majority of the populace.
I also come to the ‘Net looking for information, not affirmation…which really makes me a one percenter!
I checked out the M&P since everybody raves about it, and I gotta confess I just don’t get it-kinda looks like a “gussied up” Sigma to me?
I know…I had a lot of folks in here tell me why the M&P was better than the Sigma, but other than a couple of possible points (out of around 10), I really don’t see it (if the Sigma fits my hand, why do I need changeable backstraps)?
Anywho…lots of folks gripe about the trigger but I have no problem with it, especially in a defensive weapon. I’ve seen way too many folks come to a gunsmith wanting to do some trigger work, and after he checks it out and asks ‘em what they’re using it for (self-defense) he advises they leave it alone. Sounds like wise words to me, as I think there are way too many folks looking for a hair trigger on a defensive weapon.
Personally I have no problem with the Sigma trigger-I pull it, the gun goes BANG, and the groups are tight (no FTF or FTE so far).
Not to pick on Glocks
(never an option with me since they don’t fit my hand), but when doing my research before buying my first Sigma, I recall a couple of things the Sigma had over the all-mighty Glock, the most important being it was designed for a 40S&W so subsequent calibers were overbuilt. From what I understand, the Glock was designed as a 9mm and the subsequent calibers were built from the 9mm design-I think I like the Sigma approach better.Course, I am a pragmatist, which puts me at odds with the majority of the populace.
I also come to the ‘Net looking for information, not affirmation…which really makes me a one percenter!
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