Why No Semiauto .22 Magnums?

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R127

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The more I learn about it the more I realize what a great caliber .22 magnum really is. Right now I can think of only two interesting handguns chambered in this little giant... the NAA minis and an 8 shot revolver from Taurus. The Grendel P-30 was the only semiauto .22 mag I've ever heard of, why aren't these things more popular?

Imagine how sweet a Walther P-22 in .22mag would be.
 
why aren't these things more popular?

For what? Never beleived anything smaller than a .380, maybe .32, would be reliable in a semi auto, and pushing the envelope way out there for self defense with that. And what else would you use it for? I've always wondered what a .25 cal auto was good for, (except to piss a bad guy off), much less a .22, even a .22 "magnum". A .22 revolver with "snakeshot" might come in handy to some. Just don't see the point. Just no market, or they would be there. Have you tried a .45 semi-auto, now that's a nice little gun.:)
 
I've always wondered what a .25 cal auto was good for, (except to piss a bad guy off)

JMB invented it to be more reliable in vest-pocket pistols than the rimfire .22, which was prone to misfires. .25 ACP is centerfire.

And as always, it's not caliber, it's placement, if you're good with something. Someone at the range asked me the same question about my BUG, to which I responded by hitting a silhouette target multiple times, very quickly, in the neck and face at 15 feet. I'll get a photo of a target sometime if I remember to keep it. Lack of recoil does let you empty the whole thing pretty much in the exact same spot, if you're well-practiced with quickly aquiring a target and it's accurate.

Speer continues to make Gold Dots for it, as does Hornady Custom, and Winchester has an Expanding Point for it, (also a MagSafe +P frangible) so I'd say it's still got its uses.
 
.45acp is boring. It's not particularly powerful, just heavy and bulky. .357 sig and mag are much more interesting, as are 10mm and 7.62x25.

Shot placement and penetration. .22mag can deliver both. .22mag is very lightweight, compact, suitable for use in an ultralightweight rifle such as a Chipmunk and will work well in a pistol. Compactness and light weight of both ammo and weapon mean ease and convenience when backpacking, woodsrunning or just going about your business around town. .22mag will take very large very tough game, such as aligator, with a well placed hit. Low recoil and small physical size mean effortless control and very large potential magazine capacity, useful considering just about 50% of violent encounters involve more than one attacker. At close range the high speed and small diameter of the .22mag make it a credible threat against lower level soft body armor. It is an interesting round with many possibilities that seems to be under-represented in the market.
 
Didn't Grendel make a 30-shot .22 mag semi?

I agree that more should be made. I always thought that a .22 mag Woodsman would be cool.
 
And what happens when the angled pin of a rimfire pistol happens to hit the bit of the rim that is missing unevenly-distributed primer?

At a range, you can take the round out, turn it around, and try again with a different point on the rim.

With an attacker, by that time, they'd be pounding your head into the pavement.

Rimfire -> self-defense = no.
 
A buddy bought a used Grendel, but didn't keep it long. A few trips to the range feeding those 30-round mags with expensive WMR was enough to cure him of the cuteness factor that moved him to buy it. It's fun ripping through 30 fast ones, but it's an expensive few seconds.

WMR through a short barrel is sort of pointless, unless you need the little extra oomph or you're like me and enjoy the watching the fireball muzzle flash. I have a 5.5" Single-Six Convertible.

John
 
Folks keep bad-mouthing the rimfire as being unreliable, but the truth is, it's not the rimfire primer that's the source of the problem; it's the heeled bullet design of the .22 shorts, longs, and long rifles that's the problem.

Because of the way they're made, there's very little surface area that actually seals the case, (it's mostly just the crimp of the case) and this allows oil and moisture to seep in. ( ever seen any old .22lr ammo that had been handled a lot? Most of the time, the bullets wobble around like a bobble-head doll. ) If the bullet were forced into the case the same as the .22 mag and the centerfire stuff is, you'd have very few problems. Then again, if centerfire ammo was made with the same heeled bulled design, you'd end up with quite a few misfires there too.


J.C.
 
Not only that, but it also depends on the quality of ammo you use. Bulk pack .22lr is very cheap, it also contains several duds. Conversely out of thousands of rounds of CCI Stingers, Quickshock and Velocitors I've never had one that didn't go off.

Ten to fifteen cents per premium round is hardly breaking the bank. That'd be $3 to $4.50 per mag for the P-30, which is still 30 rounds... a lot of shooting. It isn't cheaper to shoot 7 times for $2 than it is to shoot 30 times for $3. Magazine capacity never has anything to do with how much I shoot when I go to the range anyway, I put as many rounds through as I want. I just don't see how capacity works against you.

Per given grain weight .22mag will give you around 200-300fps more than .22lr out of a 2" barrel. A 4" barrel can yield 1,300fps with a 30gr bullet, almost 1/3 faster than a 30gr .22lr through a barrel of the same length. It is not an insignificant gain over .22lr.

I wouldn't tout the .22mag as a primary defensive caliber, but it is adequate for a backup or deep cover gun. Something like a Tomcat with a 3" barrel would make an excellent pocket gun. If it had a doublestack magazine I bet it could hold fifteen to twenty rounds.
 
I toss the ammo biweekly in my NAA mini. If you leave it in the gun a couple of months, 3 out of five will dud, no matter the quality of the ammo. I guess it the sweat moisture that gets to 'em in the pocket.

9mm is just as cheap to buy as .22 mag. I've never gotten really excited about .22 mag. I had a switch cylinder single action when I was a kid and I bet I didn't have more'n a box through the mag cylinder. Just not enough for SD IMHO and more expensive than .22LR for plinking.

Also, the .22 mag makes enough pressure there needs to be either a pretty strong spring/heavy slide in a blow back or some sort of delay blowback mechanism to handle it. The Grendel has some sort of grooved chamber that was supposed to delay blowback, but was quite variable and caused a lot of problems in the design from what I've read. The AMT was no superior performer, either, but did have a large, heavy slide for the caliber. I'm not really familiar with either that much, though.

I'm a believer in revolvers if you are going to use a rimfire for anything serious. The chances of misfires and jams with the rimmed cartridge are too high for me to trust one for defense even if I was satisfied with the "power" of the cartridge. There's no good reason to shoot .22 mag in a pistol that i can see, personally, JMHO, when I can shoot 5.97 a box 9mm from walmart or load my own .45 ACP with cast bullets for 3 bucks a box. If I want a loud bang, I can load .357 Magnum for about 4 bucks a box with cast, gas checked loads.
 
One of the problems with a .22 mag semi is the very high chamber pressure combined with the very thin case required for a rimfire.

If the chamber isn't pristine, extraction will be difficult. In addition the significantly higher impulse reqiures a noticibly heavier breech block (bolt, slide, whatever).

I had a friend that had an AMT. The AMT uses a dimpled chamber to retard the blow back, taking advantage of the thin case. It worked great for 3 or 4 mags, then he started having problems because the chamber was getting dirty.

In revolvers, extraction is often difficult because the expanded cases bind the star.
 
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I have fired thousands of rds. of 22mag, mostly CCI 40gr solids, at an animal called Nutria which could reach 30lbs. The 22mag would devistate this animal rendering him incapable of escape no matter where he was hit,even up to 175yds.. But Owen is right after alot of rds extration, due to dirty chamber, was a problem. I was shooting a Volquartsen 22mag with crbon fiber bbl. I also have a AMT automag 22mag, fun to shoot but total reliability is an issue.
 
I had an Automag II. It was an impressive noisemaker. Very, very loud and from a 6 inch barrel, you get about an equal (a least) muzzle flare. When I shot it at the range, I had to double up (plugs inside 32NRR muffs) to get the noise down enough to be tolerable. Never shot more than 100 rounds per session, so I really never experienced reliability issues. It was pretty accurate.

I'd like to have another someday, but these things are getting ridiculous right now. Running $400 or more on auction sites in used condition. :what: Mine was $300 NIB when I bought it in 1990. Never would have expected AMTs to garner collector interest. I see AMT Javelina's (10mm longslide) going for $800 pretty regularly. That's crazy.
 
Good question!

I would like to see both a ruger and a browning in the caliber. It would be sweet if they came with like 10 inch barrels.

Suprising they have not tried it. Maybe they have, I'm no expert.
 
reliability

Can be reliability issues. Have one. Every single magazine made multiple trips to the range being fitted to the .22 win mag pistol. Everyone. So, there can be problems.

If you can make a 10/22 .22 win mag reliable (a whole another thread-rimfire central), it can be the cat's meow,.
 
"I just don't see how capacity works against you."

I can spend a pleasant couple of hours at the range with a few boxes of WMR and my Single-Six. I take my time, make every shot count and enjoy plinking with a 2-pound trigger. If I take a $15 brick of Wolf Match Target LR I can shoot all afternoon. I bought a lot of $15 & $18 bricks of WMT. A lot.

The Grendel encourages shooting like this: bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang.
That took a couple of seconds.

Then somebody says "Can I shoot it?" Here we go again: bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang.
That took a couple more seconds.

Repeat until all of the ammo is gone. In my limited experience nobody shoots one shot at a time with a Grendel WMR. Heck, they don't even change the target if they bothered to hang one in the first place.

I'd rather spend my $7 on a box of 28 gauge shells.

John
 
Were they having fun banging away? or did the devil make them do it? :evil:

I have 26rd mags for my CZ-75B. When I take it out I generally load 5 shots in the mag at a time for practicing marksmanship. When I want to practice rapid fire or double taps, I fill the mag to capacity. :shrugs:
 
.45acp is boring. It's not particularly powerful, just heavy and bulky. 357 sig and mag are much more interesting, as are 10mm and 7.62x25.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and mine is different than yours, but why do you think there are so many 1911s in .45 being made and sold today? And is .357Mag (which I have the highest respect for) setting sales records? I personally find 70MM very interesting. But if you noticed the smiley, I was joking.

Maybe he wants to varmint hunt with it?

Okay. Hadn't thought of that, I think of rifles when I think of varmits, that's just me. I tend to think SD when I think of pistols, I know others think differently. but the NAA mini he mentioned is no varmit gun, The Walther P22 possibly is.

What would you use it for R127?

Reliablity seems to keep cropping up as an issue. Shot placement is cetainly very important, and I bet a 22Mag would kill a gator. Who volunteers to face a charging wild pig or a charging crazed bad guy with this round if they had a choice? Proper shot placement is not always that sure with a moving target.
 
I'm not dragging this up to be a flamewar or whatever, just because I'm interested in the subject and lost track of my thread...

Regarding the popularity of the 1911 and the .45, they have cult status here due to connections with cowboys and WWII. Since Americans are seen as the act to follow when it comes to guns, this duo always enjoys international fame. They're not bad, but in practical terms they aren't spectacular. The tests that were used to specify the .45acp cartridge didn't even point to a caliber of its nature, the 7.65 Mauser did in fact kill the cattle faster than anything except the big hammer. Those in charge of the project simply wanted a .45, likely because of great history and folklore from the earlier century. At any rate it was a step up from the .38's they were using.

I can understand a joke, I'm just really bored with every gun manufacturer making yet another .45acp 1911 clone and very little new ground being explored in firearms design.

As far as what I'd use it for, well, kind of like what I'd use an NAA mini for. Think of it as an adult slingshot, it's something small and light with small, light ammo you could carry around with you to shoot at stuff when you're in the woods, be it cans or small game or what have you. Fun gun. There is a self defense role, as well. A 3" .22mag autoloader could be very light and compact making it a good front pocket or deep cover piece. It could have higher capacity while still being very compact. It wouldn't be my primary carry in most situations, but it could make a lot of sense in the office. Like a Beretta Bobcat with more bite.

As far as reliability in a blowback design goes, my wife's P22 in .22lr is perfectly reliable, but prefers high velocity ammunition. .380's are reliable blowbacks, too, even with +P. I'm sure it could be worked out, and if not, well, why not just make it recoil operated? Roller locking, something. There's a lot of actions to choose from out there. In regards to rimfire ammo itself being reliable, that's a whole nother subject. I get duds in bargain bulk pack ammo but out of many thousands of rounds fired I've never had a Stinger, Quickshock or Velocitor not go off when the hammer fell. I'm guessing this is similar to .45/1911 as far as why it keeps coming up, because at one time it was likely indisputably true and now there's just a lot of inertia. This is similar to all the guys and the gunstore counter who tell ladies to buy 5 shot .38 snubbies when a subcompact 9mm would be a better weapon.

I can't address the charging boar issue because there isn't any room to. This is like if I asked if you would rather face a charging boar with a .44mag on foot or with a .30-06 from up in a treestand. We may as well draw the conclusion that self defense should be done from a treestand with a bolt action rifle. Likewise I'd rather have a 12gauge than a .357 or .45. None of those weapons are going to be as light, compact and cheap and none of them are going to ever be a front pocket carry weapon. They're just totally different weapons by design.

The bottom line for me is fungun that can forage or defend if need be and satisfies the "always have a gun" requirement. More powerful than .22lr without a substantial increase in bulk or weight.
 
The AMT Automag II is a great semi auto for just fun shooting.
It is not a self defense weapon, it is not a military firearm, it is a rimfire. I do not think that anyone is going to use a 22 or 22 mag for self defense.
There are so many opionions about what is the best round. The 45 auto has it's place, the 357 has it's place, and the 22 has it's place.
If you really want a 22 mag semi auto, try to find the AMT Auto MAg II. I give it two thumbs up!!! You will like it!!
 
Didn't Grendel make a 30-shot .22 mag semi?

Yep, my dad got one brand new right when they came out. That thing was a hoot and a half, massive muzzle flash, loud bang and almost no recoil. It was the ultimate range noise maker.

In all fairness it isnt a particularly well made gun, and it has no real use beyond the grin-factor.
 
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