Why no small viable DA revolver?

[Old Fuff]

What I mean is that most casual gun owners I know today do not like going to gun stores.

Yes and no...

Generally, if someone has gone to the trouble and expense to obtain a CCW they have either purchased (or already had) a handgun. If not, or if what they have doesn't meet their need for concealed carry they will probably be in the market to buy a handgun that will. At this time the sales-person in a well stocked store might show them a selection of the following:

1. A North American .22/.22 WRM mini-revolver or similar Derringer.
2. A Polymer framed pocket pistol chambered in .380 ACP or 9mm Para.
3. A .38 Special or .357 Magnum built on a small-frame platform.

Now they may or may not be especially satisfied with any of the above, but they will likely be told that these represents what they have to choose from.

In the less likely event that they should go to a large gun show where the greater number of guns are older used ones they may discover a number of not previously presented options – that may be good or bad depending on one’s point of view. These might include:

A mixed selection of .25 and .32 pistols.

A number of older small-frame, solid or top-break revolvers made by the likes of Iver Johnson or Harrington & Richardson. These would be mostly, if not entirely chambered in .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long or .38 S&W.

If these were not priced out of sight (as they sometimes are) some of them might go home with somebody, but I can safely say that most if not all of the buyers would have never heard of an Internet forum called The High Road.

Now we might all agree that these pistols and revolvers, the newest ones being at least 60 years old, and probably much older are not a very good choice for the intended purpose. Thus the question, “What if they were duplicated in new modern platforms using improved ammunition, with an option to use the less powerful rounds if that was desired.

Our more tactical-minded members would probably dismiss them out-of-hand, but I don’t think the casual CCW person would hold the same views.

I am playing devil’s advocate here because not many others on this forum will.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

If these were not priced out of sight (as they sometimes are) some of them might go home with somebody, but I can safely say that most if not all of the buyers would have never heard of an Internet forum called The High Road.

I am playing devil’s advocate here because not many others on this forum will.

One of the thngs I like about you, Fuff...you do it without being snotty nor controlling. You play Devils Advocate to incite discussion about things which is why many of us are here...to discuss and look at the possibilities and less to be "told" how it really is and must be.

Off topic but there it is...

90% of my contact with shooting enthusiasts and other hand gunners is on the range and at the LGS. Most of my opinions and observations about what people want and need and are actually shooting, buying, collecting, and thinking about buying, shooting, collecting come from people who are actively doing these things and not "discussing" them via a discussion forum that specializes in gun aficionado discussion.

I was shocked the other day when I dropped the names "The High Road" and other online forum names and got puzzled looks. Apparently in a group of avid shooters and gun owners who were actually present at the range and actively discussing "what works and what doesn't" not one other of over 35 people hangs out on any discussion forum about shooting sports or handguns.

I'm starting to think (actually I now believe) that gun discussion forums, in general, are not at all in touch with the associated sports and are generally populated by specialized interests associated with guns and not representative of shooting, gun owners, and the like at all. Like we used to say at the Dojo, "Less Chat - More Mat" meaning "less discussion online and more time on the mat doing it" leads to a greater understanding of what it all really means.

Off topic some more - I don't think the opinions of folks on gun discussion forums has much if anything to do with what the general shooting public knows or thinks. 21st Century gun marketing is not at all about what will sell - it's about what is for sale and the sellers. Nothing will sell there are none to sell as it is with the smaller .32 caliber revolvers. They don't exist because an executive at S&W, Ruger, Colt, Glock, etc says they are not gonna make one. Whether it would sell or not makes no difference. There are none to sell so the answer is that they will not sell.

VooDoo

 

[chicharrones]

Good points from both of you, Fuff and Voodoo.

 

[Ed Ames]

They don't exist because an executive at S&W, Ruger, Colt, Glock, etc says they are not gonna make one. Whether it would sell or not makes no difference.

Would those exectives be thinking something like, "People can buy a 6-7-shot .32 today for under $500. Some are small enough to need a one-finger grip, others are a bit larger, but they are all pocketable. Most are 10-16 ounces loaded. The issue you are addressing is that they aren't revolvers. How much does being a revolver matter?"

I have a safety hammerless and a 1-1/2 in .32s&w so I think a modern petit revolver would be neat...but would I pay current revolver prices for one when I can get a p32 for $220?

 

[GEM]

I got a SW 432 for $330. It meets the criteria - light, 6 shots with a reasonable round. If a J frame is too big, sorry.

 

[Onward Allusion]

When I want to learn what non-gun people want in a self-defense weapon, I don't ask you guys. I ask my wife, ladies in the office, & guys who don't shoot much. Many of you will be surprised at their responses.

Very few will want anything chambered in 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 ACP, or 40 S&W. The guys usually answer some with kind of 9mm and the ladies will usually just tell you something small and easy to use. Really, I kid you not.

Us gun-people need to understand that non-gun people want convenience and ease of use over "knock-down power".

 

[Ed Ames]

When I want to learn what non-gun people want in a self-defense weapon, I don't ask you guys.

Yup, the phrase "selection bias" has relevance here.

 

[Old Fuff]

Well one problem I have with my current Taurus LW-85 (S&W J-frame size) is when it's dropped into the side pocket of some pants I own; the grip sticks up high enough so that someone standing behind me might spot the butt. My usual solution is to buy pants with deeper pockets, but I will say then when I dropped a smaller .32 S&W top-break Safety Hammerless into the same holster it totally disappeared. Concealed means… well concealed.

Most of the folks I've been talking about don't want to buy clothes to match their gun, but a gun that will fit in the clothes they buy - or a small lady's handbag as the case may be.

The revolvers vs. pistols argument will undoubtedly go on forever, but my experience tells me that those who have little experience with handguns tend to distrust pistols. This brings to mind a lady I know that bought one of the very small polymer .380 pistols. She shot it a few times and promptly sold it. Thought the recoil was too much. Perhaps rather then introducing a whole new model the makers should consider offering an optional .32 barrel.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

The revolvers vs. pistols argument will undoubtedly go on forever, but my experience tells me that those who have little experience with handguns tend to distrust pistols. This brings to mind a lady I know that bought one of the very small polymer .380 pistols. She shot it a few times and promptly sold it. Thought the recoil was too much. Perhaps rather then introducing a whole new model the makers should consider offering an optional .32 barrel.

With my Wife we tried it all...closest we came was the Colt 1903 in .32 with my hot hand loads but she has a problem feeling comfortable and always has to be reminded which is the mag release, which is the safety and which lever is the slide lock. She has since gotten very familiar with her Ruger LCR but to manage it I hand load 110 gr. bullets. Between the Colt and the LCR the effectiveness of the rounds is about equal....200 fpe. In a fight for survival she gets 8 rounds of .32 vs the 5 rounds out of the revolver. A .32 six shot DA revolver might have been her favorite but we didn't try that. She shoots a full size (S&W model 19 with .38 Specials) just fine and hammers a target in DA rapid fire but it's too big to conceal and have on her person if the need arises.

Nobody makes a small .32 revolver and the older examples we had access to she would not likely carry due to age and condition.

Then we found the Glock 42 and she is in heaven. Another gun nobody wanted. But she's a revolver lover from childhood and shoots best and feels most comfortable with a revolver as do many women in our group. Revolvers appeal because they are simple and easy to remember and operate. Not to mention easier to load for small arthritic fingers unlike pushing rounds into a magazine. I think a small .32 revolver would sell and appeal as already noted. I'd buy one. Maybe two.

VooDoo

 

[BSA1]

Has anyone tested Hornady Critical Defense in 32 Magnum for expansion and penetration?

I have a couple of 32 mag. revolver but have never got around to testing Hornady's in them.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Get some one to make it at a reasonable price and I will take one . I have a couple Pre WWI S&W 32 revolvers and would carry a modern day one . I carry a P-32 KelTec a lot as do my the women in my family.

 

[RealGun]

OldFuff in part: Thought the recoil was too much. Perhaps rather then introducing a whole new model the makers should consider offering an optional .32 barrel.

Maybe they should stop offering "cute" guns or discourage salespeople from selling backups for primary carry. We don't need any gun fascists, but we do seem to have a large population of people carrying/owning guns that impart a false sense of security and bravado. Sometimes it isn't the caliber that causes recoil but the lack of mass in a little gun.

 

[JSH1]

The revolvers vs. pistols argument will undoubtedly go on forever, but my experience tells me that those who have little experience with handguns tend to distrust pistols. This brings to mind a lady I know that bought one of the very small polymer .380 pistols. She shot it a few times and promptly sold it. Thought the recoil was too much. Perhaps rather then introducing a whole new model the makers should consider offering an optional .32 barrel.

I agree that .32 ACP would be a good round for many people and much easier to shoot in a small pistol. However, for that caliber to sell things would need to change at the gun counter. Many salesmen will tell you that anything less than 9mm can't stop an attacker and you hear the same thing at concealed carry classes. The class that my mother took doesn't even allow anything less than 380 Auto and recommend nothing less than 9mm. Manufacturers did offer .32's at one time but don't anymore. That tells me the 32 version wasn't a good seller. (The Bersa Thunder in .32 ACP comes to mind)

I have an six shot H&R 732 in .32 S&W long that was handed down to me in almost new condition. The original owner worked as a security guard and needed a gun but never shot it. It is a little bit smaller than my Ruger SP101 but all steel and heavy.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

However, for that caliber to sell things would need to change at the gun counter. Many salesmen will tell you that anything less than 9mm can't stop an attacker and you hear the same thing at concealed carry classes. The class that my mother took doesn't even allow anything less than 380 Auto and recommend nothing less than 9mm.

Agreed.

This is the whole reason our local support group was formed. Here in Illinois people got the word that we would be the final state to be allowed concealed carry and droves of folks pursued that option. The local guns stores and trainers quickly became very busy...unfortunately it took only weeks for many prospective CCL candidates, many of them smaller folks and less experienced gunners, to realize they cannot become proficient with larger calibers in carry sized guns.

My Wife was observed shooting our 2 Colt 1903's and *hammering* targets in triple tap rapid fire at 21'.....5' tall 110 lbs recoil sensitive cancer survivor at 56. People took notice and asked...and we answered and let them shoot our guns with our ammo. They are learning that it's better to have a .32 gun that they can carry and shoot often enough to become confident and proficient than to throw their hands in the air and quit because they *cannot* and will never do that with a Ruger LCP or LCR and an XD-S in 9mm or .45 nor a pocket 9mm of any make or model. Give 'em a .32 gun and watch them learn. Nurture them and *stop* telling folks to "go big or go home" and bring others into the CCL fold.

Most folks, most average normal folks, who wanna learn to carryt concealed and be able to protect their family are never gonna become gunfighters. They need tools that fit them and their needs. A .32 is not optimal but it *will* do for SD as will a .22 if the shooter is experienced and confident thru lots a practice and nurturing. A gun, any gun that they can have in their moment of need and be confident, is necessary at a gun fight. I'd rather they have 9mm's as well but they simply will never be able to do that in a real world. Not average folks at my LGS.

VooDoo

 

[BSA1]

This brings to mind a lady I know that bought one of the very small polymer .380 pistols. She shot it a few times and promptly sold it

This doesn’t mean a smaller caliber is the right answer. My daughter brought a Taurus TCP in .380. That thing is painful to shoot. She shot six rounds said this thing hurts to much and I don’t want to keep it. I told her to shoot 6more rounds to get use to it. She did and said she was done with it. I then shot 12 rounds and she was right. The thing is just plain painful (the way the gun recoils cause the inside of the trigger guard to hit the finger). I also am done with it.

As we were talking about the gun when said she doesn’t like the .380. I quickly corrected her and told her she doesn’t like the 380 in that particular gun. I pointed to her that the .380 in a different size gun would be comfortable to shoot.

My Wife was observed shooting our 2 Colt 1903's and *hammering* targets in triple tap rapid fire at 21'.....5' tall 110 lbs recoil sensitive cancer survivor at 56. People took notice and asked...and we answered and let them shoot our guns with our ammo. They are learning that it's better to have a .32 gun that they can carry and shoot often enough to become confident and proficient than to throw their hands in the air and quit because they *cannot* and will never do that with a Ruger LCP or LCR and an XD-S in 9mm or .45 nor a pocket 9mm of any make or model. Give 'em a .32 gun and watch them learn.

Was it really because of the smaller caliber or because the gun fit their hand better? The only way to know the answer is to shoot the same model in both calibers.

A .32 is not optimal but it *will* do for SD as will a .22 if the shooter is experienced and confident thru lots a practice and nurturing

This is "if the shooter is experienced and confident thru lots a practice and nurturing" a big IF. We as shooters often forget that most folks are not as interested in learning to shoot well as we are.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Most folks, most average normal folks, who wanna learn to carryt concealed and be able to protect their family are never gonna become gunfighters.

We as shooters often forget that most folks are not as interested in learning to shoot well as we are.

Very true. I sold my dad a gun because he wanted one for HD, and I had one I was looking to move on out. He shoots it accurately, but not fast. He has little interest in practice. I think it is more of a talisman to him, and he doesn't realize how difficult making good shots will be under intense stress. I encourage him to practice, and take him to the range every chance I get. I think the world has a lot more of him, than us. I'm not calling myself a gun fighter or anything, just a well practiced carrier.

Many people I know make excuses not to practice. Other than cost, I don't understand why.

I think mastering one of the small guns being discussed would be a tough challenge for a lot of folks. It would further limit the market, but certainly not eliminate it.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

This is "if the shooter is experienced and confident thru lots a practice and nurturing" a big IF. We as shooters often forget that most folks are not as interested in learning to shoot well as we are.

We have done all that....the whole key is to actually shoot the caliber and gun we choose to depend on. And as you saw with your girl, they are not gonna shoot things that sterilize them.

My Wife has settled on her Glock 42 which even with hot hand loads in .380 is mild in recoil - as mild as our Colt .32 acp with hot hand loads. So, that's the ticket. The stepping stone was a hot .32 load because when we started this journey there was not locked breech, low bore axis polymer framed .380 like the G42. Attempts to use the LCP and small .380 pistols were not pretty...these guns generally kick like a mule with factory .380.

My group loves the LCR .38 revolver with my 110 gr. hand loads but to be fair the down loaded .38 Special has no advantage over the hot .380's being loaded for the G42. We use the biggest thing we can get results in and the G42 now is the "go to" gun as the hot .380's are not much under a 9mm 115 gr. load. and superior to a downloaded .38 Special out of an LCR size revolver

A .32 revolver...a modern .32 revolver with 6 shots would be well received. More so in the absence of a G42. The LCR and small S&W .38's work great *but* even with 125 gr. factory they are too hard on the shooters of smaller stature and less experience. I'd love to add a .32 revolver to the mix for our group. But there ain't any. Revolvers in general appeal to many shooters who have been put off by other guns because they are simple to load and operate/understand. We need something between a .22 lr and a .38 Special. And we need to get trainers and Caliber Bullies and LGS salesmen on board...many of our group *have* their CCL's and passed the training and proficiencies but have come to our group because they now have a license but not the confidence. They are not comfortable with their pocket 9mm's and .45's and .38 Specials that were pushed on them by their mentors and teachers and the guys at the LGS. We are actually getting these folks to carry and shoot and become confident and proficient...and we are doing it by nurturing them that being confident and skilled (and actually carrying) a .380, 32, or even .22 beats leaving the "Death Ray" pocket 9mm that they *know* is gonna hurt them when they pull the trigger sitting in the safe at home.

There is room for a .32 revolver in say .32 S&W Long in this mix but it is DOA because of "Prevailing Wisdom" that anything that dun't start with .45 is no good/useless and frowned upon by the trainers and "folks in the know".

VooDoo

 

[Old Fuff]

This doesn’t mean a smaller caliber is the right answer. My daughter brought a Taurus TCP in .380. That thing is painful to shoot. She shot six rounds said this thing hurts to much and I don’t want to keep it. I told her to shoot 6more rounds to get use to it. She did and said she was done with it. I then shot 12 rounds and she was right. The thing is just plain painful (the way the gun recoils cause the inside of the trigger guard to hit the finger). I also am done with it. As we were talking about the gun when said she doesn’t like the .380. I quickly corrected her and told her she doesn’t like the 380 in that particular gun. I pointed to her that the .380 in a different size gun would be comfortable to shoot.

In the example I previously cited I believe the lady had a Ruger .380, but I have no idea about which model. It doesn’t matter because she dumped it because of the recoil and is unlikely to go in that direction again. I doubt that she would be interested in the new Glock model 42, or for that matter a Colt 1903 Pocket Model – or any other pistol of that size because they are much larger then she’s willing to carry. What she wants is a much smaller gun with an amount of recoil she’s comfortable with, and she isn’t going to buy anything until she finds what she wants, other “more expert” opinions not withstand. Her past choices make me believe that in an overview she might prefer revolvers, but this is speculation.

To my knowledge she doesn’t have a CCW because in Arizona one isn’t required to carry concealed, either on the person or in a vehicle. When (if) she finds what she wants I expect it be fired occasionally, but not extensively, because of ammunition prices.

Ah me…. Welcome to the real world outside of The High Road. :banghead:

 

[Old Fuff]

As aside, keep in mind that a .32 6-shot cylinder is usually the same size (and bulk) as a 5-shot .38 one. This brings us back to the J-frame or Ruger LCR size. A 5-shot .32 cylinder can be slightly larger in diameter then a 25-cent coin. This allows a much smaller cylinder window in the frame, and respesents the best possibility for making a smaller revolver, all other things being equal.

 

[JSH1]

VooDoo: A modern, DA, 6-shot revolver was recently released to the market and then pulled a couple of years later due to lack of sales. I'm speaking of the Ruger, S&W, and Taurus DA revolvers offered in .327 Federal Magnum.

I think the gun your group is looking for is the Ruger SP101 in 32 H&R Mag. I purchased a 4" model last week and love it. You can start new shooter with 32 S&W, then S&W long and finally H&R mag. I paid $450 out the door for mine and it is in excellent shape. You can get the same gun in 327 Mag but they go for about $1000.

 

[BSA1]

There is room for a .32 revolver in say .32 S&W Long in this mix but it is DOA because of "Prevailing Wisdom" that anything that dun't start with .45 is no good/useless and frowned upon by the trainers and "folks in the know".

Alas we have come full circle on this topic.

I am far from an expert but I will not carry a 32 Long for self-defense period. A round that will only penetrate through a soft ¾” pine board just doesn’t cut it. Pepper Mace and Tazer are far better choices for quick “stopping power.”

The 32 Magnum seems to have promise. My favorite cartridge is the 32-20 and the 32 Magnum is merely a straight wall cartridge version. (A Grail Gun for me is a Police Positive in 32-20 and yes, I would carry it). But a modern double action 6 shot revolver has proven to be a market flop.

The Single Six has been a good seller for Ruger but it’s market is mainly Cowboy Action Shooters. However there must be enough 32 Magnums for Hornady to justify developing and market their Critical Defense for it.

With the J-Frame 32 Magnums out there no one has come for forward with their experiences with it.

What is needed is a time warp to the 24th Century for a Phaser.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I'll have to look at that Ruger!!

A bit larger and heavier maybe if it's the same size as the SP101 in .38 Special but worth the lookie see none the less...thank you for the suggestion.

VooDoo

 

[mavracer]

Part of the problem with 32s popularity is the internet reading gun counter commando and their percieved ineffectiveness. Doesn't make it right but it's there. If somebody comes in and asks for advice they are told 380 or 38 special is minimum.
Also many want to make that sale today so if they don't have a 32 in stock, then they are somehow even less effective than what ever they do have in stock.

In the example I previously cited I believe the lady had a Ruger .380, but I have no idea about which model. It doesn’t matter because she dumped it because of the recoil and is unlikely to go in that direction again. I doubt that she would be interested in the new Glock model 42, or for that matter a Colt 1903 Pocket Model – or any other pistol of that size because they are much larger then she’s willing to carry. What she wants is a much smaller gun with an amount of recoil she’s comfortable with, and she isn’t going to buy anything until she finds what she wants, other “more expert” opinions not withstand. Her past choices make me believe that in an overview she might prefer revolvers, but this is speculation.

You might have her look at a Beretta Tomcat, it has a pretty wide little backstrap and is pretty comfortable to shoot also the tip up barrel makes it easy to manipulate for artheritic hands.
Just a FYI

 

[RealGun]

When I want to learn what non-gun people want in a self-defense weapon, I don't ask you guys. I ask my wife, ladies in the office, & guys who don't shoot much. Many of you will be surprised at their responses.

Very few will want anything chambered in 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 ACP, or 40 S&W. The guys usually answer some with kind of 9mm and the ladies will usually just tell you something small and easy to use. Really, I kid you not.

Us gun-people need to understand that non-gun people want convenience and ease of use over "knock-down power".

Why would we allow that they are somehow qualified to pick a gun? There is some discussion and range time with samples that needs to take place to make a "no-gun person" into a more savvy gun person.

 

[Old Fuff]

Most of the "no gun" folks that I know (or come to me) looking for advise don't necessarily want to be directed or dictated to. They are much more interested in finding out where to go to find what they want!