Why Progressives Should Love The 2A:

[JTHunter]

Flechette - take a look at the picture in post #11 at the link below. It will tell you how far Democrats have veered from their original positions.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=795787

 

[RX-79G]

The right to hold to one's own religion is enshrined in the First Amendment.

It sure is. And when you end up with health care run by a religious organization, you can keep your religious convictions and not have to adopt the organization's. That's because freedoms are for people, not organizations. A health care system is not person, not matter who administrates it.

 

[orpington]

Flechette - take a look at the picture in post #11 at the link below. It will tell you how far Democrats have veered from their original positions.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=795787

Yes, I forgot about this thread, which I actually started! That was a most interesting thread, now wasn't it!

I think the same can be said of the Progressives over time. Having watched much of the Ken Burns Roosevelt series on television, I came to admire T Roosevelt even more. Obviously, just like with Southern Democrats/Democrats and their shift over time, the Progressives have changed over time, and they aren't what they once were, either. Not to leave out the Republicans--you can see from my earlier thread that they have changed as well. None for the better, I might add.

For what it is worth, it is disappointing that politicians have (or have to!) cater to special interest groups, be it those that are pro-2A, those that support causes, ethnicities, or lifestyle choices, etc. Really, need to stick to important "big picture" issues. First one would be fiscal responsibility. The national debt is fast approaching $20 trillion. How will we ever prosper as a nation with that looming over us? Need to cut back at current spending levels so that less than what is taken in is spent so that debt is serviced with the remainder.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It sure is. And when you end up with health care run by a religious organization, you can keep your religious convictions and not have to adopt the organization's. That's because freedoms are for people, not organizations. A health care system is not person, not matter who administrates it.

What kind of sophistry is this?

In our system, anyone can open a health clinic or hospital. You don't "end up with health care run by a religious organization." You end up with clinics and hospitals run by local governments, private companies and charities, including religious charities. We have a broad spectrum of health care facilities.

 

[RX-79G]

What kind of sophistry is this?

In our system, anyone can open a health clinic or hospital. You don't "end up with health care run by a religious organization." You end up with clinics and hospitals run by local governments, private companies and charities, including religious charities. We have a broad spectrum of health care facilities.

This stuff went to the courts because employees of religious hospitals did not get to choose alternate health care as part of their employment benefits.

Unless you're arguing that good jobs are so easy to come by that people should change jobs every time they find out they can't get a prescription filled?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

This stuff went to the courts because employees of religious hospitals did not get to choose alternate health care as part of their employment benefits.

It went to the courts because people who wanted to persecute others for religious reasons passed a law to that effect – and the Secretary of HHS wanted revenge because she had been excommunicated.

Unless you're arguing that good jobs are so easy to come by that people should change jobs every time they find out they can't get a prescription filled?

I've had insurance refuse to fill a prescription on more than one occasion -- most recently a new medicine designed to combat my wife's short term memory loss.

And yes, if you don’t like your job, get another one. If you have a hard time getting a job, well, maybe you should have paid more attention in school and got a better education.

 

[RX-79G]

Vern,

Unless you can't get your wife's medicine because of the religion of her clinic, you just are arguing to argue. Bye.

 

[tipoc]

This piece of the discussion, on religious institutions and the Affordable Care Act, involves a lawsuit filed by the Catholic Archdiocese of New York and several other Catholic organizations against the provision of the act requiring that employees who have medical coverage are also covered for birth control.

In New York alone the Church employs tens of thousands of workers. The New York Archdiocese alone employees over 10,000. 8,000 of whom are lay people and not all Catholic. Catholic Health Services of Long Island (six hospitals and three nursing homes) employs over 25,000 people.

The Church also filed 88 other lawsuits if various states against the same provision of the act.

The Obama administration had previously exempted the N.Y. Archdiocese from having to provide insurance for birth control to it's workers. But the passage of the ACA raised the specter for the Church again.

In Dec. of 2013 Federal District Judge Brian Cogan upheld the contentions of the Church that they had a religious right to refuse this to their employees. This has sparked ongoing fights over this issue.

The Catholic Church, and other religious institutions run thousands of hospitals, schools, colleges, etc. in the U.S. These employ hundreds of thousands of persons. They are business like any other and are run as that. Yet they receive the support on a number of levels by state and federal governments. Monetarily, with tax breaks, vouchers for their schools, etc. and are occasionally exempt from having the same law applied to them as applies to others. In this case the church seeks to extend it's influence over public life and the Obama administration acceded to that. It has used the voucher program for schools even more widely than the Bush administration, as a tool for gathering support.

tipoc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Unless you can't get your wife's medicine because of the religion of her clinic, you just are arguing to argue. Bye.

I see. It's okay by you to withhold medication, you just don’t like religion.

Now, don’t let me put words in your mouth, but I’m getting the impression you don’t like the First Amendment, and you believe there should be a State Religion, one that conforms strictly to your beliefs, and all other religions should be attacked, condemned, persecuted and forced to violate their moral standards.

Is your real name Diocletian?

 

[tipoc]

The above was followed up by the 2014 Hobby Lobby decision by the Supreme Court. This decision granted the right to the owners of Hobby Lobby to deny contraception coverage in their insurance to their workers. At the time Hobby Lobby had 13,000 workers. Also effected was Conestoga Wood Specialties, a cabinet maker, with 950 workers.

This is a useful tool for bosses. You can claim you have a religious objection to birth control and so don't have to provide coverage for it in insurance and potentially increase your profit margin.

tipoc

 

[RX-79G]

I see. It's okay by you to withhold medication, you just don’t like religion.

Now, don’t let me put words in your mouth, but I’m getting the impression you don’t like the First Amendment, and you believe there should be a State Religion, one that conforms strictly to your beliefs, and all other religions should be attacked, condemned, persecuted and forced to violate their moral standards.

Is your real name Diocletian?

No, it is not. What are you reading?

I said that the discussion of withholding medical care by a business for religious reasons has nothing to do with what is going with your wife, so your statement was just a big non sequitur, as are your follow-ons.



Tipoc, thanks for filling in the details.

 

[Sistema1927]

Well, this one has certainly gone far afield.

One reason why "Progressives" are against the 2A is because they aren't truly progressive. They are simply Socialists in new dress. Socialism has been killing people for more than a century, and it is easier to kill people if you disarm them first.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I said that the discussion of withholding medical care by a business for religious reasons has nothing to do with what is going with your wife, so your statement was just a big non sequitur, as are your follow-ons.

Of course you say it! It's the only thing you CAN say once your argument has been stripped to its basics and shown for what it is.

You object to religion -- unless it conforms to YOUR standards -- and you want religions that don't conform to be persecuted.

Once again, is your real name Diocletian?

 

[RX-79G]

Vern, you're on "ignore". You'll have to troll someone else.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Saint Fiacre, thank you!

 

[Robert]

Healthcare, religion and politics? Y'all do remember that this is a strictly firearms forum and all those are off topic and unwelcome here correct? Yet some of you delve into them freely, completely ignoring the fact that you know better. And yes, I was asleep today...I work nights.