Dustinthewind
Member
It would come in handy reading menus in dimly lit restaurants
Why should one have a light on the accessory rail?
- Thread starter marklbucla
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Thanks, Chindo18Z, for the tried and true, been there did that, report from the field! Practical application trumps theory every time! 
Like I said, "Cops and soldiers alike, consider their weapon lights indispensable."
People stiill argue that lasers are "cat toys" at best; and that is just idiotic! I suppose these same people tout the benefits of the stone wheel--no flats!
What are you gonna do? :banghead:
Hard to believe, they were somebody's baby once... Probably fed them with a slingshot!
A light is a light is a light... Not true!
The attached shows a SureFire X200A spot beam Vs. and X200B flood beam, in a fully darkened room, shot with the same camera, from the same distance. Clearly, the flood beam--the X200B--is the one you want for sweeping rooms indoors. This is the one you can skip off the ceiling, and see the whole room!
The light is used in quick bursts. You do not saunter around the house with the light blazing... The laser is used with equal restraint... You apply tactics! It takes some thought and practice
--Ray
Like I said, "Cops and soldiers alike, consider their weapon lights indispensable."
People stiill argue that lasers are "cat toys" at best; and that is just idiotic! I suppose these same people tout the benefits of the stone wheel--no flats!
What are you gonna do? :banghead:
Hard to believe, they were somebody's baby once... Probably fed them with a slingshot!
A light is a light is a light... Not true!
The attached shows a SureFire X200A spot beam Vs. and X200B flood beam, in a fully darkened room, shot with the same camera, from the same distance. Clearly, the flood beam--the X200B--is the one you want for sweeping rooms indoors. This is the one you can skip off the ceiling, and see the whole room!
The light is used in quick bursts. You do not saunter around the house with the light blazing... The laser is used with equal restraint... You apply tactics! It takes some thought and practice
--Ray
Attachments
For those of you that like to over analyze things . . . If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it actually make a sound? If so, how do you know?
I keep one on the gun by the bed so I can grab ONE item and have everything. One advantage of the rail mounted light is that it back-lights the sights VERY well. Not only do you see the BG but your sights are easy to align. AND if you are using the momentary rotation, it keeps your booger hook off the trigger until you need it.
I keep one on the gun by the bed so I can grab ONE item and have everything. One advantage of the rail mounted light is that it back-lights the sights VERY well. Not only do you see the BG but your sights are easy to align.
AND if you are using the momentary rotation, it keeps your booger hook off the trigger until you need it. You're right, PPGMD!
The X300 seems to combine the X200's A&B into one multi-purpose weapon light!
The original X200A has awesome range--well over 200-feet, with its 3-watt Luxeon LED and TIR lens. It's analogous of a high-end car's projector high/spot beams.
The original X200B has awesome flood performance, with its 5-watt Luxeon and micro-textured reflector, but limited range, say, maybe 60-feet, analogous of a high-end car's driving lights.
The X300 also employs the new CREE LED, if memory serves, which offers longer battery life and a warmer light.
I know where I can grab an X200B for just a little over $200.00, and think I'll do so, before they're gone.
My X200A will serve on a (new to be had) shotgun, as both weapon light and target designator.
But in this game of electronics, we're talking macro-evolution. I wouldn't be surprised if the X400 is already poised for production!
--Ray
The X300 seems to combine the X200's A&B into one multi-purpose weapon light!
The original X200A has awesome range--well over 200-feet, with its 3-watt Luxeon LED and TIR lens. It's analogous of a high-end car's projector high/spot beams.
The original X200B has awesome flood performance, with its 5-watt Luxeon and micro-textured reflector, but limited range, say, maybe 60-feet, analogous of a high-end car's driving lights.
The X300 also employs the new CREE LED, if memory serves, which offers longer battery life and a warmer light.
I know where I can grab an X200B for just a little over $200.00, and think I'll do so, before they're gone.
My X200A will serve on a (new to be had) shotgun, as both weapon light and target designator.
But in this game of electronics, we're talking macro-evolution. I wouldn't be surprised if the X400 is already poised for production!
--Ray
Robert Hairless
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2003
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- 3,983
The only reason to have a light on any firearm is if it's too dark to see your target otherwise. If you never get in a situation like that, you absolutely don't need one.
Same thing with ammunition by the way. If you're attacked by someone out to kill you and you stop him with one shot, you absolutely don't need more than a singleshot firearm. Or if you have a shotgun and scare him away by racking the slide, there's no point in carrying any ammunition.
There's surely no need for redundancy if you're an expert. So I often wonder why people who go into harms way often have weaponlights and laser sights on their guns as well as more than one handheld flashlight on their person, why they don't use singleshot firearms and prefer larger capacity weapons, and why they bother to use ammunition in their shotguns and like to carry more than they think they'll need.
Same thing with ammunition by the way. If you're attacked by someone out to kill you and you stop him with one shot, you absolutely don't need more than a singleshot firearm. Or if you have a shotgun and scare him away by racking the slide, there's no point in carrying any ammunition.
There's surely no need for redundancy if you're an expert. So I often wonder why people who go into harms way often have weaponlights and laser sights on their guns as well as more than one handheld flashlight on their person, why they don't use singleshot firearms and prefer larger capacity weapons, and why they bother to use ammunition in their shotguns and like to carry more than they think they'll need.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Robert, is the reason because they want to be somewhat smart without looking ostentatious?
Maybe it is because if they have a light, then they won't have a good excuse for having missed? LOL!
Of course, there are those that claim a spare magazine it just too much extra weight and hassle to carry.
Maybe it is because if they have a light, then they won't have a good excuse for having missed? LOL!
Of course, there are those that claim a spare magazine it just too much extra weight and hassle to carry.
berkbw
Member
I have seen the error of my ways, thank you.
I wish to retract/recant the remarks which I earlier made on this thread.
b-
I wish to retract/recant the remarks which I earlier made on this thread.
b-
In a recent class I took the instructor made a point to debunk this a bit.
A flashlight (80 Lumen Surefire) was placed in "head" of ISPC target facing the shooter. The shooter (owner of the light, just in case the light would catch a bullet
) stood in front of the target with eyes closed. On command, he opened his eyes, looking right into the beam, and proceeded to fire 5 shots.The group could be covered with a palm. The distance was about 5 meters.
I guess the only thing that makes this experiment less then perfect is that the element of surprise was missing, but, nevertheless, some food for thought...
Wineoceros
member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
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- 230
I guess I should be more judicious in my use of adverbs.
YK: I'm curious...
What was the ambient lighting for this drill?
Indoor (all room lights on or off)?
Outdoor range (daytime or night time)?
The desired blinding effect from a weapons light is normally against dark adapted eyes (your retina is already expanded like an owl's to absorb all available light).
If your instructor didn't try this in a DARK indoor range (lights out) or outdoors at night, I'd be wary of drawing any conclusions.
Not saying he did or didn't, just curious as to conditions...
What was the ambient lighting for this drill?
Indoor (all room lights on or off)?
Outdoor range (daytime or night time)?
The desired blinding effect from a weapons light is normally against dark adapted eyes (your retina is already expanded like an owl's to absorb all available light).
If your instructor didn't try this in a DARK indoor range (lights out) or outdoors at night, I'd be wary of drawing any conclusions.
Not saying he did or didn't, just curious as to conditions...
leadcounsel
member
It gives you options;
Light is our friend;
It illuminates the whole room;
Light is our friend;
It illuminates the whole room;
Travis McGee
Member
#9: So you don't shoot your daughter's boyfriend or your dumb brother in law.
For now, I'm a laser man. But I like gun lights too.
For now, I'm a laser man. But I like gun lights too.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
That is one way. When Thunder Ranch was in Texas, the did force on force training at night, the Terminator (shoot house) with simunitions. The good guys had lights. The bad guy, who was the groundskeeper for TR, did not. We would win repeatedly in one on one encounters with professionally trained police officers and military personnel and sometimes against teams. He had no flashlight. He would go against guys armed with pistols, shotguns, and rifles and still win.
Basically, he could hide and wait for his prey to come to him. He could shoot from concealment before they knew he was present. He could shoot from the open because he was in a position where he could shoot anyone. He had NO rules of engagement. He did NOT have to identify his targets as FOF. Anybody with a light was a threat to him and he would shoot them. The good guys were hampered by rules of engagement, having to identify whether or not he was a bad guy or a innocent party.
Was he blinded by their big powerful surefire and streamlight lights? Sure, but not so much that he couldn't shoot the people holding them. As a bad guy, you just aim toward the light and blaze away. The person is most likely right behind the light and if not there, they are no more than one arm's length away.
Sure, good lights are TOOLS. When you start believing they are weapons, like lasers, you get killed. Just because a person's ability to see well in the dark has been hampered, it does not mean that person has been incapacitated or otherwise stopped.
If I am wrong, somebody will correct me. I believe Clint said the man's name was Tran. Tran would be repeated blindly during these training exercises so not only was his night vision ruined once, it was ruined so many times that by the time the sun came up, he should not have been able to see it, and yet he could. And yet he was repeatedly victorious.
Lights are not lasers and current lasers to which we have access are laser sights, not laser weapons.
If you want to believe your light is a weapon, then start your training in using the Force.
Chuck R.
Member
In the past 2 years I've taken 3 low-light classes, 2 handgun and one long-gun.
Lights have their use and I'm a firm believer in them especially on a long gun. I see the weapon lights are bad discussion crop up frequently when someone asks about a light.
I'd like to ask the "no light crowd" how many have taken a low-light course using the modern techniques and come away thinking that lights still serve no purpose or will get you killed?
Not read about it, or tried it at home, how many of you have actually atteneded formal training and came away believeing that lights are dangerous?
Chuck
Lights have their use and I'm a firm believer in them especially on a long gun. I see the weapon lights are bad discussion crop up frequently when someone asks about a light.
I'd like to ask the "no light crowd" how many have taken a low-light course using the modern techniques and come away thinking that lights still serve no purpose or will get you killed?
Not read about it, or tried it at home, how many of you have actually atteneded formal training and came away believeing that lights are dangerous?
Chuck
Chindo18Z:
It was a night shoot with perfect conditions for such activity: outdoors, about 20:00 during the third week of January in north Texas, partly cloudy (moon was visible, but not clear), and no lightning fixtures on the range. Examining target for hits required coming to the target and illuminating it with light. Also, flashlights were required to simply pick our stuff up when we were leaving.
In short, it was very dark. Can't speak for the other students, but my pupils were fully dilated not only from darkness, but also in disbelief how lousy I shot as compared to other shooters...
It was a night shoot with perfect conditions for such activity: outdoors, about 20:00 during the third week of January in north Texas, partly cloudy (moon was visible, but not clear), and no lightning fixtures on the range. Examining target for hits required coming to the target and illuminating it with light. Also, flashlights were required to simply pick our stuff up when we were leaving.
In short, it was very dark. Can't speak for the other students, but my pupils were fully dilated not only from darkness, but also in disbelief how lousy I shot as compared to other shooters
...YK: Thanks for the info.
I'll have to try that drill. Sounds like your instructor is a good shot and able to shoot through adverse conditions. Better still, he runs students through night fire (many don't).
You can work on your dryfire/light skills by going into a darkened bathroom or bedroom with a large mirror and turning off light. Your apparent target distance will be double that of the distance you stand from the mirror. It will give you some practice in replicating your intructor's drill and give you a chance to practice shooting through your "opponent's" light. It's also a good place (without going to the range) to practice reloads, handheld flashlight grip, and malfunction drills.
As always, safety rules apply, triple check that you have a dry weapon and magazines.
I think your instructor did a good job showing limitations of equipment. As noted by others, lights are not weapons. They are target aquisition tools. Their primary function is to allow YOU to ID and engage opponents. The blinding effect is an added benefit.
Your instructor might have a bit more of a problem doing it off of the flat range (against moving FOF or live targets shooting back). I'm also sure he already knows this.
Sounds like he was giving you insight into both the upsides and downsides of your tools. Good for him.
Double Naught Spy: I am not even remotely suprised at the results of even well-trained students going against your Thunder Ranch groundskeeper. In decades of force-on-force training, I've observed that a dedicated OPFOR always has the advantage and usually smokes the good guys. Doesn't matter whether its an OPFOR VisMod Cavalry Bn at NTC, Top Gun instructors flying lower performance dissimilar aircraft, or one guy in a house with a Sims barrel.
FOF opponents have the training advantage of knowing their terrain, having repetitiously analyzed/engaged previous opponents, having a pre-planned defense, and (most importantly) knowing that it's not for real, which allows them to do things that would not happen using real bullets. Add in an OPFOR teammate or two and you have a nightmare training scenario for the good guys. In CQB training, 2 guys, armed, with 10 minutes to plan & rehearse their actions in a house, can reduce a 12-man assault force to a mass casualty exercise. But not always and eventually (through repetitious assaults) only by luck.
That's why we train.
CQB-driven small arms assaults are not always the answer. But, if you must, lights (like armor) are always a required tool (day or night). LEO and military assaulters universally carry, train with, and employ tactical lights (unless they simply can't afford them). Think about that...
Good discussion...
I'll have to try that drill. Sounds like your instructor is a good shot and able to shoot through adverse conditions. Better still, he runs students through night fire (many don't).
You can work on your dryfire/light skills by going into a darkened bathroom or bedroom with a large mirror and turning off light. Your apparent target distance will be double that of the distance you stand from the mirror. It will give you some practice in replicating your intructor's drill and give you a chance to practice shooting through your "opponent's" light. It's also a good place (without going to the range) to practice reloads, handheld flashlight grip, and malfunction drills.
As always, safety rules apply, triple check that you have a dry weapon and magazines.
I think your instructor did a good job showing limitations of equipment. As noted by others, lights are not weapons. They are target aquisition tools. Their primary function is to allow YOU to ID and engage opponents. The blinding effect is an added benefit.
Your instructor might have a bit more of a problem doing it off of the flat range (against moving FOF or live targets shooting back). I'm also sure he already knows this.
Sounds like he was giving you insight into both the upsides and downsides of your tools. Good for him.
Double Naught Spy: I am not even remotely suprised at the results of even well-trained students going against your Thunder Ranch groundskeeper. In decades of force-on-force training, I've observed that a dedicated OPFOR always has the advantage and usually smokes the good guys. Doesn't matter whether its an OPFOR VisMod Cavalry Bn at NTC, Top Gun instructors flying lower performance dissimilar aircraft, or one guy in a house with a Sims barrel.
FOF opponents have the training advantage of knowing their terrain, having repetitiously analyzed/engaged previous opponents, having a pre-planned defense, and (most importantly) knowing that it's not for real, which allows them to do things that would not happen using real bullets. Add in an OPFOR teammate or two and you have a nightmare training scenario for the good guys. In CQB training, 2 guys, armed, with 10 minutes to plan & rehearse their actions in a house, can reduce a 12-man assault force to a mass casualty exercise. But not always and eventually (through repetitious assaults) only by luck.
That's why we train.
CQB-driven small arms assaults are not always the answer. But, if you must, lights (like armor) are always a required tool (day or night). LEO and military assaulters universally carry, train with, and employ tactical lights (unless they simply can't afford them). Think about that...
Good discussion...
Chindo18Z:
The idea of practicing against the mirror is excellent, I can't believe I've not heard of this before, thank you very much.
It may have not been clear from my original post, but the person shooting against the light beam wasn't the instructor, it was a student who has never done this before. To me, it only adds validity to an experiment.
This instructor is very particular about low-light training, and, in collaboration with another instructor, offers dedicated low-light classes. I don't want to steer this discussion away by "plugging" him in, but if you, or anybody else, is interested, I'd be happy to provide info via pm.
For those who never had low-light training: as Chuck R. alluded to above, it is an eye-opener, literally and figuratively
The idea of practicing against the mirror is excellent, I can't believe I've not heard of this before, thank you very much.
It may have not been clear from my original post, but the person shooting against the light beam wasn't the instructor, it was a student who has never done this before. To me, it only adds validity to an experiment.
This instructor is very particular about low-light training, and, in collaboration with another instructor, offers dedicated low-light classes. I don't want to steer this discussion away by "plugging" him in, but if you, or anybody else, is interested, I'd be happy to provide info via pm.
For those who never had low-light training: as Chuck R. alluded to above, it is an eye-opener, literally and figuratively
Travis McGee
Member
Way back when, in the 80s, I remember doing wax bullet training in low/no light conditions. This was pre-simunitions. Basically, you use revolvers, and make cookie cutter wax bullets with the empty brass and a fresh primer. It works really well, but only in revolvers.
Anyway, we would do this training in warehouses, motor pools and ship's cargo holds at night. We'd put on maybe one small light up in a corner, to cast some shadows and make low light channels and lanes among the vehicles, cargo boxes etc.
This was great heart thumping training. We are talking major intense fun. Wax bullets hurt like hell. You KNOW when you have been hit, for sure.
Anyway, we learned a lot doing this training. We tried one on one, two on one, teams, you name it.
But it always evolved into the guy who stayed hidden, and ambushed the searcher, won almost every time. If you stayed in a dark corner and waited, you'd get a back shot on the searcher just after he passed by.
Once this was learned, everybody would just hide, and the games basically ground to a halt. So we had to make rules to force action: everybody wanted to be the hider and not the searcher. We used time limits, such as, you only win if you get a kill shot in ten minutes, otherwise both sides are eliminated from moving up, or the hider automatically wins.
You make a scenario such as, "You and your partner are cops, and you have ten minutes to search and clear this warehouse." THen you switch roles with the other team, and compare results.
We had to do this forced role playing, because as I said, nobody wanted to search! Searchers got shot by ambushers most every time.
Now, here's the main lesson we learned, that I have never ever forgotten: Once the first shot was made, even by an ambusher on the searchers back after he passed by, it was very common for both parties to be shot in the resulting gun battle. The tiniest sound and shadow is magnified when your senses are keyed up for "battle." After the first "bang," your muzzle flash becomes a bullet magnet.
Forget about gun lights, I'm talking about just the muzzle flash, after the first shot is lit off. You'd take a great shot, and six wax bullets would be coming right back at you in a flash. Often, the first shooter would get "killed" by the guy he just shot.
The big lesson from this was: even if you have a perfect "kill shot" on your adversaries back, don't shoot until you can get cover. If you shoot from the open, even a great back shot from 15 feet away, you had better plan on a hail of bullets coming back at you. GET COVER FIRST if at all possible.
Also: Even if you totally dead bang bad guy #1, his unseen partner may shoot you, once you light off a round (or a flashlight for that matter.) GET AND USE COVER!!!!!
So the idea of entering a warehouse with a flashlight, even using it for a quick scan and off, does not appeal to me. Basically you are calling out, "Yoo hoo, Mr. Criminal, I'm coming! Take cover now, hide, and shoot me after I go by."
All that said, I would still use a light in my house to ID a bad guy, but I'd be VERY CAREFUL about tipping off a bad guy who may then hide and shoot me from cover.
Realistically, it makes the hide in the safe room and call 911 option sound pretty good. Assuming you don't have to go protect your kids and so on.
Remember: The gun light tactics are mainly for GROUPS of SWAT types, who lead with flash bang distraction devices. 5 or 6 LE raiders with lights would be terrifying. This is NOT so for a lone home owner at oh dark thirty.
As far as cops who strap on armor and a badge and a gun, and who by the nature of their job must frequently "clear" that warehouse after midnight.....well God bless em. That is a real gut check job I do not envy them doing.
Anyway, we would do this training in warehouses, motor pools and ship's cargo holds at night. We'd put on maybe one small light up in a corner, to cast some shadows and make low light channels and lanes among the vehicles, cargo boxes etc.
This was great heart thumping training. We are talking major intense fun. Wax bullets hurt like hell. You KNOW when you have been hit, for sure.
Anyway, we learned a lot doing this training. We tried one on one, two on one, teams, you name it.
But it always evolved into the guy who stayed hidden, and ambushed the searcher, won almost every time. If you stayed in a dark corner and waited, you'd get a back shot on the searcher just after he passed by.
Once this was learned, everybody would just hide, and the games basically ground to a halt. So we had to make rules to force action: everybody wanted to be the hider and not the searcher. We used time limits, such as, you only win if you get a kill shot in ten minutes, otherwise both sides are eliminated from moving up, or the hider automatically wins.
You make a scenario such as, "You and your partner are cops, and you have ten minutes to search and clear this warehouse." THen you switch roles with the other team, and compare results.
We had to do this forced role playing, because as I said, nobody wanted to search! Searchers got shot by ambushers most every time.
Now, here's the main lesson we learned, that I have never ever forgotten: Once the first shot was made, even by an ambusher on the searchers back after he passed by, it was very common for both parties to be shot in the resulting gun battle. The tiniest sound and shadow is magnified when your senses are keyed up for "battle." After the first "bang," your muzzle flash becomes a bullet magnet.
Forget about gun lights, I'm talking about just the muzzle flash, after the first shot is lit off. You'd take a great shot, and six wax bullets would be coming right back at you in a flash. Often, the first shooter would get "killed" by the guy he just shot.
The big lesson from this was: even if you have a perfect "kill shot" on your adversaries back, don't shoot until you can get cover. If you shoot from the open, even a great back shot from 15 feet away, you had better plan on a hail of bullets coming back at you. GET COVER FIRST if at all possible.
Also: Even if you totally dead bang bad guy #1, his unseen partner may shoot you, once you light off a round (or a flashlight for that matter.) GET AND USE COVER!!!!!
So the idea of entering a warehouse with a flashlight, even using it for a quick scan and off, does not appeal to me. Basically you are calling out, "Yoo hoo, Mr. Criminal, I'm coming! Take cover now, hide, and shoot me after I go by."
All that said, I would still use a light in my house to ID a bad guy, but I'd be VERY CAREFUL about tipping off a bad guy who may then hide and shoot me from cover.
Realistically, it makes the hide in the safe room and call 911 option sound pretty good. Assuming you don't have to go protect your kids and so on.
Remember: The gun light tactics are mainly for GROUPS of SWAT types, who lead with flash bang distraction devices. 5 or 6 LE raiders with lights would be terrifying. This is NOT so for a lone home owner at oh dark thirty.
As far as cops who strap on armor and a badge and a gun, and who by the nature of their job must frequently "clear" that warehouse after midnight.....well God bless em. That is a real gut check job I do not envy them doing.
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