Why the heel release?

[extremefishin00]

I was just wondering why certain guns were designed with a heel release for the magazine rather than having a button behind the triggerguard? It seems like the heel release is a bit slower, and at least in my limited experience, harder to activate. I notice that it seems to be found mainly on European weapons, was there a philosophy they followed that was different from other weapon designers?

Chris

 

[BigG]

Could be the same reason they started and were unable to finish numerous wars. ... Dumb! Dunno, otherwise, unless they figure 8 or more shots ought to resolve a situation and you can reload at leisure.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It is an older design. Many of the guns with this feature, such as the Colt 1903 in .32 or 1908 in .380 that were built on the same frame and slide, were meant as pocket guns. Buttons depress fairly easily in pocket guns and this can be a bad thing, but the heal releases are usually more secure.

Why they continue to appear on a few larger guns is beyond me. It is a feature preferred more in the European market, as noted, and mag changes don't seem to be a relevant issue for the guns, not fast ones anyway.

 

[RON in PA]

It's true that the heel release requies two hands and is a little slower, but if you shoot one like a Makarov or Walther P38/P1 you'll find that you get used to it almost immediately. The Soviets went to the heel release on the Mak because they had complaints from the field about accidental mag release with the Tokarevs.

 

[Crownvicman]

If you use it properly, a heel release is not that slow. And it may make sense for some European militaries (Russia) that can't afford to be tossing magazines all over the ground. I think I read somewhere the Soviets adopted a heel type mag release on the Makarov for that reason.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I think we worry too much about the need to do rapid "tactical" reloads.

A heel release is definitely more secure for ccw.

 

[gvass]

hi,
other reason that it is far more cheaper to mass-produce (without MIM or CNC of course). And as it is more primitive, the reliability is higher by large margin.

It is illogical to call it "European"-type, as the "most European" handgun, the Luger have "normal" mag release.

 

[Soap]

I've always heard that it was because European weapon doctrine dictated retention of a spent magazine during a reload. This is probably the same reason why many Euro guns also have magazine brakes.

 

[BigG]

Daniel. Heck, now that you mention it, that makes sense. Yanno, I hardly ever throw one of my magazines away.

 

[Majic]

It is by design for magazine retention. Activating the release drops the magazine into the hand. If you notice most also don't allow a free drop. You have to pull the mag out of the well.
Most European countries had more personel than weapons and no parts were considered a disposable item.

 

[Trebor]

A better question might be: Why NOT a heel release?

The heel release involves fewer moving parts and is easier to manufacture.

The heel release prevents accidental release of the magazine while in the holster or firing.

The heel release also promotes the retention of the magazine by normally requiring that the shooter pull the mag out with the off hand. (In many guns, you can often "shake" the mag out one-handed, but it can be iffy)


The only advantages the button release has are a faster magazine dump for a faster reload and the ability to ore easily drop the magazine with one hand only if the off hand is injured or otherwise occupied. Note that both of those advantages go towards the theory that more than one magazine will be needed in a fight.

I think American shooters tend to over-emphasize speed reloading. For the civilian CCW permit holder, the avoidance of an unintentional magazine release is a benefit that should not be overlooked.


For me, it doesn't really matter. I have guns with both types of releases and I can use either type. I'm happy with my Makarov with it's heel release, and I'm equally happy with my CZ-75 with it's button release.

Interestingly enough though, I did decide that I prefered the P7 PSP with a heel release for CCW over the P7M8 with the release behind the trigger guard. The M8 was susecptable to accidental mag release while holstered and the PSP also seemed slightly more comfortable due to the lack of proterburances on the slide. (In the end though, I decided I prefered either the Mak or CZ for CCW to the P7. The gun just didn't fit me right)

 

[BamBam-31]

Guess I'm just a dumb American. I can't STAND the heel release. Every time I handle my buddy's Mak, I keep looking at the trigger guard pivot pin and think, "Man, that's the smallest mag release I've ever seen."

I flattened out the mag brake in my CZ 75 so it'll drop free. It annoyed the heck out of me that I had to pull it out.

Just out of curiosity, how often do people accidently release their mags with the button release? I've never personally heard or read of any incident of that type.

 

[BluesBear]

BamBam-31

how often do people accidently release their mags with the button release?

Have you ever looked closely at a leather USGI .45 Holster?

There's a long "lump" sewn inside on the leg side of the holster. That "lump" is to hold the pistol in a slight "twist". If you remove this "lump" it's very easy for the magazine to be released.

I learned this the hard way.




Anyway,
The Sauer 38H and the Walther PP & PPK as well as the Browning P35 are well known European pistols that used a button magazine release.

Oh yeah there's a little known pistol called the Luger that used one as well.

 

[BigG]

Bam Bam

how often do people accidently release their mags with the button release?

I have read that it is statistically almost as prevalent as kinking a recoil spring. What? Your Colt 45 Auto clone doesn['t have a full length guide rod? UNTACTICAL!

 

[1911Tuner]

Euorpean Mag Release

The answer to this probably lies in the intended role of the pistol in the
military establishments. Europeans have typically viewed the pistol as
more of a symbol of rank than a fighting tool, and thus saw no need for
a fast, one-handed reload. At the very most, the pistol is a last-ditch
defensive weapon, and in such a role, it was probably determined that
if the shooter hadn't solved his problem by the time the magazine was empty, he was likely beyond help. This view of the pistol in Europe
has hung on.

The 1911 was different from its inception. It was designed and intended to
be a weapon, and not just in the defensive role that the pistol has generally come to be. It was intended to be an offensive weapon for
a horse-mounted cavalryman. The U.S. still had horse soldiers well into
WW2.

Also, when the 1911 was designed, trench warfare was the order of the day, and it was pretty clear that that type of warfare would probably
turn into a stalemate. Here, the pistol came into its own when small raiding
parties crossed "No-Man's Land" under cover of darkness to wreak all the
havok that they could in the enemy trenchline. Long, bolt-action rifles
were unwieldy for such missions, but not so for the pistol, knife, and
truncheon. The Thompson Submachinegun wasn't yet a player, and came
along too late to have much of an impact in WW1. The riot gun...a short-barreled pump scattergun worked, but was hampered by bulky ammunition
for night forays into the opposing trenches. The risk of having the muzzle
plugged with mud during the trip over and/or during the action was also an issue.

The 1911, with its power, fast-reload capability, and reliability in the
mud and crud of the trenches was infinitely suited to such action, and it saw a lot of it.

The role of the pistol started to change during WW2, along with the pressing need for a fast reload, but the advantage of the button magazine
release remains. With practice, the heel-mounted release isn't that much slower than the button...but when a half-second is possibly the determining
factor, it's important. There's also the matter of the disabled hand/arm.
A reload with one hand is possible, but agonizingly slow with the heel-mount release.

Onward...

Tuner

 

[happyguy]

<<<I've always heard that it was because European weapon doctrine dictated retention of a spent magazine during a reload. This is probably the same reason why many Euro guns also have magazine brakes.>>>


While in the service and carrying an M-16 we were trained to take empty magazines and stuff them down our shirts when doing a rapid reload. It had nothing to do with the location or type of magazine release. Think about it, when you call for ammo resupply they don't bring more magazines.

Going on patrol with six 30 rounders is comforting. Coming back with two 30 rounders is embarassing, and also not very smart.

While I train to do tactical reloads, I expect to leave an easy to follow trail of empty magazines in my wake should I be the one in a million civilian that has to use a pistol and also has to reload.

What is a magazine brake?

<<<how often do people accidently release their mags with the button release? >>>

The only pistol that I have ever done this with was my Kahr P9. I have read somewhere that the first H&K's with an American style release had a propensity to release their mags while still in the holster. No first hand experience though.


Regards,
Happyguy

 

[Tamara]

The 1911, the Radom, the Luger, and the Tokarev all have button mag releases.

They also have something else in common: They were designed to be used by guys whose other hand was full of horsie controls.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Tamara, even with the button mag release its still purty dang hard to reload a 1911 one-handed.

 

[Soap]

Happyguy- Euro handgun doctrine nearly always does include mag retention IME, even for police forces who have no concern of resupply at all. Also, a magazine brake is just a simple spring in the magwell that prevents the magazine from popping out all the way. For example, see the CZ-75 or the Hi-Power.

 

[Pilot]

I like the heel release on my Makarovs and P7 PSP. I can still do quick mag chages and I feel its more secure. That being said, I don't hesitate to carry other guns with the traditional button release.

 

[ID_shooting]

Good post 1911tuner, one thing to add. If the enemy busted your trench and you spun to the side and tagged him with your 1903 sprg you had quite a chance of fragging the firendly behind him and maybe the other one behind that one as well. With the 45, much less chance of over penetration. But that is not what this thread is about.

I got currious last night so I holstered up my 1911 and had my wife time me doing tac reloads. I then holstered up my MKII and did the same. You know, I was faster doing tac reloads with the MKII. The main difference I noticed was witht he 1911 you have to loosen your firing hand grip, slightly spin the gun and hit the mag butting with your thumb, catch the mag in your off hand insert the new one and pocket the empty one. Now, with the bottom release, I didn't have to loosen my firing grip at all. I just grabbed the fresh mag, pushed the release with my thumb pulled out the empty, put in the new and poket the empty. My firing hand never left it's grip so if needed, I could have shot before I put the old mag in a pocket.

Interesting, for those that have bottom retaining handguns, give it shot, see if you have the same result.

 

[1911Tuner]

Quicker at the Heel

ID_Shooter said:

The main difference I noticed was with the 1911 you have to loosen your firing hand grip, slightly spin the gun and hit the mag button with your thumb...

The heel release is quicker than most would think...Now, have her time
you again, except this time, hit the button with your left thumb. Remember
to take your finger out of the trigger guard. This leaves the weak hand in
position to rip a magazine out that doesn't fall. Neat and quick.

Now, go back to the old way and shift the gun to release the magazine with your right thumb. Notice how it forces you to take your finger out of the trigger guard? No need to remember. Now try it again, except instead
of "spinning" the pistol to reach the button, try rocking it back in your hand so that the muzzle points upward at about 45 degrees. The trigger finger
moves under the trigger guard naturally, and the muzzle is pointed safely
skyward. Coincidence? Maybe...Or was the design better thought-out than
we suspect? Want to make it yet even more natural? A shallow cutaway sort of like speedloader clearance on a revolver grip at the front of the left-side grip panel would make the button even easier to reach with the pad of your thumb.

So many things to consider, eh what?

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[Peter M. Eick]

As a P7-PSP shooter and a 210 shooter, I find the heal release very quick and easy. Plus I never once have to clean out a magazine that has fallen in the mud. As tuner says it is a lot quicker if you work at it for a while.

 

[WheelMan]

Being a lefty I actually prefer button mag releases on the left side of the gun. I don't have to shift my firing grip to drop the mag and since I use my trigger finger to hit the release it's automatically out of the trigger guard. This tends to work better on some pistols than others, It's extremely easy with a CZ pattern, but I find it more difficult with a 1911.

 

[BamBam-31]

What is a magazine brake?

In my CZ 75b, it's a thin, springy sheet of steel between the magazine and the rear of the grip (where the mainspring is located). It's bent towards the magazine, pressing slightly against it so that when the mag release is pressed the magazine does not drop out freely. It must be pulled out.

I like drop free mags. I paid extra for drop free mags for my Glock. Mag brake bad. BamBam no likey. I took a pair of pliers to the brake in my CZ, and now the mags drop free like God intended.