Why to people butcher and rape milsurps?

[Saleen322]

The term rifles by the barrel is a fact. I was a kid in the 1960s and I can remember literally 98 Mausers and Springfields sticking muzzle first in the wooden barrel with a sign $25 each. They could get a man a hunting rifle he could afford when money was tight. There were many gunsmiths that could do great work and make them into fine rifles. I still have this reworked Springfield from the 60s. Unfortunately the barrel was messed up many years later and I had it rebarreled in the same caliber as the bolt was opened up for magnums.

 

[Dr T]

If one was gifted with the ability to tell the future...Before the JFK assassination with a mail order 6.5x52 mm Carcano it was easy and cheap to get a wide variety of mil surps through the mail with no background checks, ffl's, etc.

Then the world changed. What was once plentiful has now become scarce, and the ones in really good condition are really, really scarce now. Then, one of the really good bold actions, the K98 was cheap and a decent gunsmith could turn a good action into a show piece. This success led to experimentation with other actions and a lot of the experimentation was poorly executed (I have a SMLE that is an example). These rifles were tools, not the pieces of history they are now.

Upon reflection, a few things are apparent.

1. A mil surp is first a military rifle. It was designed for use in a hostile operation environment. Those full length stocks (which are fairly heavy) which enclose the barrel have a use: They keep the rifleman from burning his hands during an extended fire fight and provide a handy place to hold on to if you are using the rifle for something else, like a club for instance. This is generally not needed if you are going out deer hunting.
2. The tolerances that were used in some military rifles are a bit looser than those used in sporting rifles to allow operation in a very harsh, dirty environment. The design emphasis is on reliability rather than precision accuracy. Great for a battlefield, but not so much for a deer blind.

Besides the SMLE that was bubba'd, I have a nicely modifed 1898 Springfield Krag (stock cut down with an Alex Henry fore end), and, unmodified, a SKS ( pre-Norinco Chinese built for the civilian export market), a Russian MN with an octagon reciever, and 1939 MN with an octagon reciever. They all have a place in the collection for various reasons. However the only "pieces of history" are the MN's and the Springfield Krag. The other two are just shooters that used to be military rifles.

 

[maxxhavoc]

I picked up this M1903 sporter in a pawn shop for a bit over $200. The stock was carefully and tastefully reshaped to the previous owner's liking. He had removed the sight band and installed Williams sights on the barrel. It was probably a "barrel gun" at one time:

In its former life, it was a 1917 Rock Island used and refit by the USMC. Like others here have mentioned, it was not what I wanted. So I filled and filed the holes in the barrel, bought some new hardware, and made it into this:

No real collector value anymore, but it looks better and feels better in my opinion. It shoots better too, if you can find the front sight in the aperture. And I can sell it for more than $200 (but maybe not what I put into it.)

Of course, my next project was to turn a WWII Chinese Mauser into a 45 ACP. My 'smith advised against ever shooting 8mm in it again. The stock was rotten and literally broken in half. The barrel was Junk. But hey, I used that pawn shop stock again!

So sometimes, even people who value the history behind a gun will end up sporterizing it. You have no idea how bad the rifle was before they messed with it in most cases.

 

[win71]

From Sam.."When military surplus rifles were "take your pick out of the barrel - $15" down at the hardware store, sporterizing one was a great way for Joe Average to get something like one of those glorious Winchester Model 70s for his modest hunting needs. So, they were cut down and altered in the millions."

In the late 40's and 50's there was even instruction on how a "bubba" with some skill and hand tools could do it.

 

[win71]

Saleen322 !
That is a very nicely done 1903A3. Here is a poor photo of a gunsmith school project rifle. A 1903 in 308 Norma Magnum. To have it built now would cost 3 times more than a off the shelf 300 Win Mag.

 

[JeffG]

I'm not claiming any moral high ground here, I once built a 300 H&H on a 1917 action. Recently I bought a really cherry Yugo 8mm Mauser, and I decided to leave it as is, after refinishing the stock. I am planning to shoot cast bullet handloads for a sweet shooting rifle.

 

[BrocLuno]

See, I'm actually more interested in the Bubba jobs than the original. There are history books and articles galore about the originals. If you want to see an in original configuration in action, go to most High Power meets and there will be some fellow shooting whatever you are interested in.

A real Mil-Surp w/o the story that goes with it, is just surplus material. One with a story, that's different. Most do not have that story...

But looking at what my uncles did with "hardware store barrel" rifles is interesting. Looking at what Bubba did all along is interesting, It speaks to the average Joe trying his hand at getting a working rifle of some sort.

Nobody wants to tote a 10lb 5ft rifle in the woods. A soldier, might very well appreciate that 5 ft if he was in close with a bayonet. But not a USA woods hunter. So they get bob'd and chopped and restocked. Some come out beautiful. Some real ugly

They are all interesting. I like the cheap ugly kind. They've already been "butchered" so what do I have to loose... They are not worth finding scarce parts for and re-installing an original used barrel. That's a lot of work for a gun that will go from $100 to $500 and cost a grand to do.

I'd rather use the Bubba job as a basis for an experiment. Some new configuration that I'm interested in. So, in a way, I'm just carrying on the tradition. Cheap action to maybe more interesting rifle. Along the way you always learn something... If it does not work out, you can always break it up and sell the pieces, and get most of your money back

Williams Gun Sight Co used to have a horizontal milling machine and would mill the sight ears off an action and give you a Remington 700 contour receiver top for scope or peep sight mounting for a fee. They finally retired that machine a few years ago. But I'll bet they cut 100's if not 1,000's of receiver tops back in the day. Lots of guys first big deer rifle started as a barrel rifle ...

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

I picked up this M1903 sporter in a pawn shop for a bit over $200. The stock was carefully and tastefully reshaped to the previous owner's liking. He had removed the sight band and installed Williams sights on the barrel. It was probably a "barrel gun" at one time:

In its former life, it was a 1917 Rock Island used and refit by the USMC. Like others here have mentioned, it was not what I wanted. So I filled and filed the holes in the barrel, bought some new hardware, and made it into this:

No real collector value anymore, but it looks better and feels better in my opinion. It shoots better too, if you can find the front sight in the aperture. And I can sell it for more than $200 (but maybe not what I put into it.)

Of course, my next project was to turn a WWII Chinese Mauser into a 45 ACP. My 'smith advised against ever shooting 8mm in it again. The stock was rotten and literally broken in half. The barrel was Junk. But hey, I used that pawn shop stock again!

So sometimes, even people who value the history behind a gun will end up sporterizing it. You have no idea how bad the rifle was before they messed with it in most cases.

I picked up this M1903 sporter in a pawn shop for a bit over $200. The stock was carefully and tastefully reshaped to the previous owner's liking. He had removed the sight band and installed Williams sights on the barrel. It was probably a "barrel gun" at one time:

In its former life, it was a 1917 Rock Island used and refit by the USMC. Like others here have mentioned, it was not what I wanted. So I filled and filed the holes in the barrel, bought some new hardware, and made it into this:

No real collector value anymore, but it looks better and feels better in my opinion. It shoots better too, if you can find the front sight in the aperture. And I can sell it for more than $200 (but maybe not what I put into it.)

Of course, my next project was to turn a WWII Chinese Mauser into a 45 ACP. My 'smith advised against ever shooting 8mm in it again. The stock was rotten and literally broken in half. The barrel was Junk. But hey, I used that pawn shop stock again!

So sometimes, even people who value the history behind a gun will end up sporterizing it. You have no idea how bad the rifle was before they messed with it in most cases.

How did your Chinese Mauser turn out in45.acp?

 

[amadeus76]

Nobody wants to tote a 10lb 5ft rifle in the woods.

I like how they keep getting heavier with every post...

Fact of the matter is, if weight is the reason it's a BS reason. Even a Mosin only weighs 8.8lbs and most are lighter or at least balanced well enough to feel like they are.

I get some of the reasons some here have given for converting them. Some of these reasons are legitimate. But weight or accuracy aren't... The weight difference of half a pound to a pound is negligible and if it's too much for you, you just need to get tougher. Accuracy isn't really helped by converting the rifle most of the time, especially when you're talking about something like a 1903a3.

That said, if the rifle is trashed or you just want to, you really can't argue against that.

 

[Ignition Override]

amadeus76: Despite all of the reasons listed (don't SEAL BUDS Trainees carry standard Mausers during Hell Week?... ), there's only one thing I've noticed at gun shows:

None of my gun buddies ever gives a second-glance to any sporterized milsurps.
Some of them were probably inherited, or needed a better home, but without the gun's original military character, an unfamiliar seller such as a guy's widow (or son/daughter) probably has less chance of cashing in on a gun she needs to sell.

A buddy died a few months ago at age 49, and whether (or not) his ex-wife or best friend managed to sell anything, at least they were in the original configurations.

 

[Decoy80]

amadeus76: Despite all of the reasons listed (don't SEAL BUDS Trainees carry standard Mausers during Hell Week?... ), there's only one thing I've noticed at gun shows:

None of my gun buddies ever gives a second-glance to any sporterized milsurps.
Some of them were probably inherited, or needed a better home, but without the gun's original military character, an unfamiliar seller such as a guy's widow (or son/daughter) probably has less chance of cashing in on a gun she needs to sell.

A buddy died a few months ago at age 49, and whether (or not) his ex-wife or best friend managed to sell anything, at least they were in the original configurations.

I agree about the value if the history of a ghost gun is not known. A 6.5x55 mm Swedish Mauser with the short 3 step military barrel I own is the most accurate one in my humble collection. Its easy to manuver and not too heavy and fits me with the custom stock. I could never afford the factory rifle it would take to out shoot it. It by faf exceeds my own abilities. Timney trigger set at a pound and a half. The best tool i own for accuracy for sure. If its yours enjoy it and life. If you want to donate your old heavy clunker like it is to a museum its yours do as you wish but be happy and tolerate other folks doing their thing with theirs.

 

[LoonWulf]

Thats my "newest" sporterized gun, i bought it as is for about 100 bucks, all the work was done by the previous owner. Including a poor rechambering to 30-06. Its getting some work done on it at the smiths, I actually need to call and check on it lol.

6lbs 2oz aint to shabby in terms of weight reduction, and it sports a 21" barrel.

 

[Decoy80]

View attachment 229902

Thats my "newest" sporterized gun, i bought it as is for about 100 bucks, all the work was done by the previous owner. Including a poor rechambering to 30-06. Its getting some work done on it at the smiths, I actually need to call and check on it lol.

6lbs 2oz aint to shabby in terms of weight reduction, and it sports a 21" barrel.

When you get it fixed up to fit your needs , it looks good and you cant help but like a short barreled rifle. You are more comfortable with one due to ease of mobility it seems not to mention lower recoil from the shorter barrel.

 

[LoonWulf]

Yeah the little gun handles nice. It unfortunately is getting its barrel replaced, the chamber job was poorly enough done the smith didnt want to mess with it. I may ask him to shorten the replacement barrel if he doesn't already have it installed, otherwise ill do it later.

I actually scrounged another arisaka action not too long ago im thinking of having him install a new 6.5x284 heavy barrel on.

 

[Decoy80]

Yeah the little gun handles nice. It unfortunately is getting its barrel replaced, the chamber job was poorly enough done the smith didnt want to mess with it. I may ask him to shorten the replacement barrel if he doesn't already have it installed, otherwise ill do it later.

I actually scrounged another arisaka action not too long ago im thinking of having him install a new 6.5x284 heavy barrel on.

That should be a tackdriver when you get it pimped out just exactly a perfect fit for you. It probably will be like my old swedish mauser and be more capable than the shooter himself. I love a tool that does the job with ease and consistently. Once you find its sweet tooth loadwise I wouldnt be afraid to put it up against a store bought high end gun. With a better shooter than I am of course.

 

[Ignition Override]

Decoy80: the desire to customize is certainly understandable.

And in many other cases guns had been neglected or abused and needed some talented help. Many are beautiful products.

 

[Ibmikey]

Who would have thought tne Mosin rifle supply would dry up as quickly as it did but thanks to the acts of government officials who know what you need in your life better than you do, there are now only expensive rifles out there. It was no big deal to buy one ar $89 and just for fun see what can be dine to make it a decent hunting rifle. Cut the barrel, tap for rings, ( surely you have an old Lyman or Bushnell 4x laying aboij turn the bolt handle and replace the stock with somethig more sporting....for a couple of hundred you could have a sporting rifle for your kid's first deer hunt.
Now that that same rifle starts out about $300 and ammo is not cheap buying buy the sealed tin it does not make sense to chop one up. I still see, however guys removingthe spike bayonet on carbines and sks rifles then grinding all that chunk of metal into something more pleasing to the eye. Too each his own!

 

[fpgt72]

I will go back and read the answers....I read the first few and just....sigh.

But I will tell you the history....sit down, grab your adult beverage and enjoy.

Back in the 50's.....GI Joe came home with the trophy....but having slugged a big heavy rifle around for years he wanted to lighten it up for deer hunting....so the first thing to go was the stock. This was the G43 I bought.....you are thinking someone hacked up a G43...yup...at the time it was just an old rifle....worth less then the new sporting rifles of the day. A remington Model 8 was an expensive autoloader.....if you already had that old german rifle why now use it.....that G43 was worth way less in the market back then. Then you got to where the heck am I going to find 8mm mauser....so they got re chambered in something a little easy to come by 3006 in most cases. Some did not as this got into some money....and you had catalogs that could get you ammo shipped to your door. You also had a different set of laws back then....before the 1968 deal it was easy for joe public to get a gun shipped to his door....just ask Lee Harvey Oswald.....Bannerman and others shipped stuff everywhere and they really did sit in barrels outside of feed stores....my Krag is one of these. The father in law and his brother went in together and bought the Krag in the hills of Tenn. They bought the Krag because they could not afford the $25 for the 1903.....think about that for a sec...it will come back. They paid $15 for the Krag. Then they wanted to make it "fancy"....they did....and used that rifle for years to poach deer....yup...poor people got to eat....and these two kids (under 15) put food on their table....typical share cropper family of about 10....and they could not afford dirt...they being dust poor.

This went on into the early 80's....the surplus guns just being so cheap.....then prices started to rise.....and the OP's question comes in....why would you take a G43....a rifle that costs over $1500 today in just OK shape...a shooter...and hack the crap out of it when other things are out there to do the job you are trying to do better.....well you have to put yourself in that time frame.....the same time you go....man I could have a 57 chevy two door with fuel injection for under 2 thousand....why did you not buy all of them.....because a house was 5 thousand.

This was then.....and then does not equal now.

People hack them up now for one reason and one reason only....they are cheap and they want to play....no one today would hack up a Krag, G43, or 1903.....when looking or talking to any of these guys that do this ask them one question....would you take one of those rifles in like condition and do what you just did....and no matter what they say you know the answer.....they do it because they can and it is cheap.....just because you can does not mean you should.

 

[X-Rap]

I've seen some guns butchered up a bit but I don't know what a raped on looks like.
Truth is, if it weren't for the sporterized and bubba modified guns I doubt there would be much value or interest in surplus weapons.
If there would have been some restrictions either imposed personally by shooters or by a gov they probably wouldn't have made it to the barrel in the first place. They would have been put to scrap like so many are today.

 

[CraigC]

To me, this is about like saying kids shouldn't play with their toys because if they leave them pristine, in their pristine packaging, some faceless future collector will think they're worth more than they cost new. Some budding, short-sighted collectors don't seem to realize that those things weren't made for them to collect. They were made to serve a different purpose and had they not been used for that purpose, there would be no reason to collect them. If 90% of the people who bought Star Wars toys in the 1980's had saved them for future collectors, there would've been no future collectors.

We hear the same old tired rhetoric from all sorts of collectors. The Ruger guys get their panties in a wad when folks use Old Model (1955-1973) Blackhawks as the basis for a custom. If you spend $2000 to have a gunsmith craft a custom gun from a $250 beater, they will actually call it "butchered". IMHO, some folks need to retract their heads from their posterior orifices and realize that THEIR purpose for a firearm is not more noble than the person who actually owns it.

For example, this old Ruger was the aforementioned $250 beater. 17yrs ago it went to Jim Stroh (then the treasurer of the American Pistolsmith's Guild) for conversion to .44Spl, then it was fitted with smooth stag by master gripmaker Tedd Adamovich. Then it was fitted with ivory micarta by Cary Chapman. Not only has it far exceeded the investment value to me as a shooter and constant companion, but it is worth more than I invested in it as Jim Stroh has now retired.




This sixgun started life as a 2006 issue 50th anniversary .44Mag Blackhawk. I'm sure that in 50yrs, the collectors will cringe that somebody took a $500 gun, just like every other $500 anniversary .44 and turned into this $5400 "butchered" monstrosity.




The point here is that if the rifle doesn't belong to you, it's really none of your friggin' business what is done with it. Some milsurp rifles have been turned into some of the finest sporting arms the world has ever seen. Many were worked over by guild gunsmiths before they ever came to the US. Some have been worked over by kitchen table gunsmiths. Some have been preserved by collectors. None occupy any moral high ground over the other. They're not only inanimate objects and not the Shroud of Turin but at one time, the original purchaser thought they were worth very little and sold them for pennies on the dollar. So stop whining about it, there are folks who collect guns that are far older, far more rare and far more valuable.

 

[illinoisburt]

...
Truth is, if it weren't for the sporterized and bubba modified guns I doubt there would be much value or interest in surplus weapons.
If there would have been some restrictions either imposed personally by shooters or by a gov they probably wouldn't have made it to the barrel in the first place. They would have been put to scrap like so many are today.

I have to agree with you on this. Historically only a small segment of the shooting public showed much interest in old military surplus. Of course things have been changing as more people today are buying long guns not for hunting, but just plinking and punching paper. And many folks own multiple guns as opposed to the past were a huge collection might have been 4 or 5 in a glass cabinet.

By the way, you might have noticed this really only happens on large scale with long guns. Service pistols might get new grips, but aside from that there isn't a lot of modifications.

As for scrap today, that's really a function of the switch to full auto and select fire weapons in service. Since the registry is closed there is no legitimate route to take most post-1950s auto military rifles into the civilian world without full demill and rebuilds on new receivers so finding barrels full of them at the local gun stores isn't going to be too likely.

 

[kBob]

I was just looking at a Carcano in a sporterized original stock yesterday. Looked like the barrel and receiver were in original un cut shape and that only the wood had been altered. Got me to wondering what it would take to "bring it back", I mean I already have one clip and a couple of rounds of WWII Italian ammo.....

I bought my first Mauser out of a barrel at WoolCo for $35. I think the last wooden barrel full of milsurps I saw was at a store in Lakeland Florida about 1990 or so.....it was full of late war and training Arisakas and bore a sign that they were not for shooting. Just looked at a late war 99 yesterday as well, only cost cutting I saw was that crappy looking thin bolt handle with a cylinder on the end rather than tear drop handle. Also has late war square handled bayonet. fun to look at and handle anyway.

-kBob

 

[Picher]

I'm a shooter and hunter and it pains me to see people buy guns to "have them" and never shoot them. That has caused prices to skyrocket for everyone and I wish they'd collect something else! Some folks who like to shoot old military rifles replace the front sights, so they can be zeroed at 100 yards, and shoot them often. That's what people should do with them.

 

[boom boom]

I really don't care what people do with their property unless in doing so they make it unsafe for me next to them on the firing line. Cutting up a pristine milsurp doesn't make economic sense, nor in many cases restoring to military configuration a rifle that has been extensively sporterized. I can admire pretty sporters and I can admire restored rifles on the forum.

I think that part of the issue is that people who grew up in the age of military surplus abundance see things differently than those trying to acquire milsurps in original configurations. Those trying to acquire originals may feel emotionally that it is one less that can be acquired. Those growing up in abundance, it is a tool that can be molded by craftsmanship to be better than the original.

Go to a collectors board, expect to be hammered for your sporter as a desecration to history and veterans. Go to a sporter forum, they often express disdain for the military configuration and its perceived shortcomings. On the High Road, we get both kinds.

In the interest of reducing conflict, if you don't like sporterizing--then simply avoid commenting on them, if you don't like milsurps or restoring them to original configuration, then avoid those topics. Simple, but where would the fun be in that. This also goes for 9mm v. .45, Semi vs. bolt, revolver v. semi-automatic pistol, ad infinitum.

 

[mokin]

From Sam.."When military surplus rifles were "take your pick out of the barrel - $15" down at the hardware store, sporterizing one was a great way for Joe Average to get something like one of those glorious Winchester Model 70s for his modest hunting needs. So, they were cut down and altered in the millions."

In the late 40's and 50's there was even instruction on how a "bubba" with some skill and hand tools could do it.

I love that. I've got a couple old gunsmithing books that are full of examples of modifications to Krags, Mausers, Springfields, and Lee Enfields. Much of the work demonstrated depicts quality craftsmanship and how to turn a beat up battle rifle into a thing of art. I think a lot of those old "barrel guns" were modified because the owner liked to tinker and wanted to make something pretty. I have a feeling that 50 years ago many guys not only liked working with their hands but were a lot more handy.