Will we ever get to have fully auto weapons?

[mljdeckard]

When I was in Germany in '93, we still had grease guns in our arms room, they were on the MTOE for our recovery vehicle crewmen. They were on the property books for like $8.75.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

and hi point justifies selling their guns for $150?
you can get a more reliable MG for alot less.

 

[General Geoff]

Hi-Points are more complex and expensive to build than open-bolt SMGs. Unfortunately any firearm which fires from an open bolt is considered by the ATF to be too "readily convertible" to fully automatic, so selling even semi-auto open bolt guns is a no-no.

 

[GregGry]

One thing I never understand is most of my friends complain that the price of full auto weapons prevents them from being able afford them, and thats a form gun control. However these same people can't afford the ammo to shoot 7 magazines out of the gun a month anyways . The way I see it the price of the weapon is really moot since it wouldn't be hard to shoot 400$ worth of ammo in a day out of them. I will stick to semi auto myself

 

[femoralis]

Almost anyone could afford to shoot a full auto .22 weapon, GregGry.

The ban on new MG needs to be eliminated.

 

[Zoogster]

and hi point justifies selling their guns for $150?
you can get a more reliable MG for alot less.

Hi-Points are more complex and expensive to build than open-bolt SMGs.

Exactly. Any semi auto pistol on the US market today is more complex than an open bolt firearm.

Open bolt guns are some of the easiest firearm designs to make, far easier than a closed bolt design, and it is slightly easier to make them full auto than to make them semi-auto.

There is not nearly as many moving parts as in a closed bolt design.
In the simplest form there is the bolt, moving back and forth in a tube or frame, with a spring behind it and a simple catch or sear tied to the trigger mechanism to hold it rearward. All the trigger mechanism needs to do is release the bolt already under spring tension, then engage a recess in the bolt when it goes rearward from recoil.
Add a barrel, and a reliable magazine and viola. The bolt is most of the design, it strips the round from the magazine, drives it into the chamber and then fires it with a simple fixed firing pin. The recess in it is also a large portion of the trigger mechanism.
You have a full auto open bolt gun. In fact making it semi-auto actually requires more parts in the trigger mechanism so it will reset and catch the bolt without the shooter releasing the trigger.

So an open bolt machine gun is cheaper than almost any modern handgun to make.
An open bolt semi-auto is cheaper too, but as mentioned the ATF does not allow those anymore.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

hopefully sometime in my life that ban is lifted.

 

[mboylan]

The law is over 20 years old. Once Gun Control laws are that old they almost never get repealed. They have become the new "normal" and people don't know what they would do without those laws to protect them.

In 1986 domestic production of new select fire weapons to be sold on the domestic market to regular citizens was prohibited.

In 1968 they prohibited foreign ones from being imported for sale to regular citizens.

Up until 1986 you could modify, build or otherwise create a select fire weapon if you paid your $200 tax with the ATF first.
You could also purchase select fire weapons for no more than semi-auto counterparts.
You could also purchase semi-auto weapons and pay a tax to modify them to select fire, or purchase a cheap part already made that accomplished the same thing as long as you paid the tax.

Some modifications were really simple, and cost far less than the $200 tax itself. For $20 you could turn many semi-auto firearms into select fire weapons.
Consider modern modifications like the Glock FSSG. A simple little device cheap to mass produce, requiring no modification to the firearm which installs on any Glock to give it select fire. Now imagine if there was a huge market with competition, they would be dirt cheap.
They had lightning links for ARs, and people could set up thier 1911s or anything else to be full auto quickly.
Then there were the extremely cheap sheet metal designs like the select fire MAC which cost less than many quality semi-auto pistols or revolvers .
Yet I do not believe most of the public was aware that was completely legal after they obtained a $200 stamp. There was no internet, and only someone that chose to research the information at a library or obtained it from someone who already knew became aware of the process for legal NFA items.

Firearm registration requirements were also very rare at the state levels back then. Even California had great firearm freedoms in 1986. Yet the NFA process requires registration. There was more reluctance to register a gun for potential confiscation at a later date back then.
(Today the licensing processes or purchase processes of several states register firearms, or at least handguns. People also sign up for Concealed Carry regularly now. So signing up as a gun owner with the government is much more mainstream now. It was once seen as a rather foolish thing to do.)

There are a few more reasons why they were not very popular. Most CLEOs would flat out not sign off on the approval and there was no trust option available. Some would if you were a personal friend or had donated large amounts of money to police charities. Ammo costs adjusted for inflation were nearly twice what they are today from the early 70s through the mid 80s, especially military calibers. That $200 tax in 1984 is over $400 in today's dollars. Still wasn't a very available option for most people.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

I would be happy if the tax stamp cost was reduced, and the ban on new MG's being made/sold was lifted.

 

[amprecon]

I personally see no need for a f/a weapon, not only can you not hit anything at distance with it, I can't afford all the ammo I'd need to make it worthwhile. I disagree about them being hard to get though, the constitution does not differentiate about what "arms" we may possess. However, during the time of the writing of our bill of rights, we the people retained the power and the government served us. The idea of the government not trusting the people during that time was an incredulous thought, the government was impotent over it's citizens, as it should be, it wasn't/isn't their job. Somewhere along the line, we've been slowly giving them power over us, and it is our situation today.

 

[marine1976]

Good lord, only a devil dog would ask a question like that. I wish I could afford a SAW or 240 for home defense! Where you located bro?

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Just in the last 60 years, there have been like TWO murders attributable to these doomsday machines of death.

Wasn't one a murder committed by an off-duty police officer?

 

[mboylan]

They've been hard to get and very rare since 1934. That's why you don't see many crimes committed with them.

The gang-banger conversions will jam after half a mag or fire out of battery and destroy the receiver. Not worth it to them.

Bubba conversions don't work too well. It is difficult to convert without the correct parts and in most cases some machining to the receiver. A good machine shop can do it easily.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Wasn't one a murder committed by an off-duty police officer?

Yep,

 

[RoostRider]

If they were legal every gangbanger would own one, because they wouldn't go for $15k. Given that accuracy doesn't seem to matter a whole lot to them (gangbangers or full auto fire... lol), it might be a good thing access to them is limited.... we get plenty of 'sideline' damage from this crap already...

Not saying I'm for the ban on them (or limitations, as it were)...

For what it's worth, the success of the ban on full auto's is good grounds for arguing a route to success on banning all other guns as well.... make new production and sale to citizens illegal, closely watch those already in possession, the price skyrockets, pretty soon only the rich can have them... problem solved...

 

[femoralis]

Before they were banned the crime problem with legally owned autos was virtually nonexistant (2 murders since 1934). For that reason there is no reason to believe the ban reduced crime in any fashion whatsoever.

Actually, it probably increased "crime" as otherwise law abiding people make illegal conversions to fulfil their own desires to own one, as they can no longer afford to do so legally.

 

[mboylan]

Yes, but before they were banned, full-autos were more difficult to obtain than now. Now that they are expensive, you just need the money. You can go the trust route and avoid fingerprints and CLEO permission. CLEO permission is much easier to get now that they are exotic and extremely expensive collectables. When they were cheap most CLEOs would not give permission and no trust option was available.

There is a definite reason why there are only a little more than 100,000 transferable full-autos. There hasn't been much crime with them since 1934, because there just aren't that many.

I don't think that there are alot of functional illegal conversions out there. Who with the machine skills to do it would risk up to 10 years for manufacture and up to 10 years for possesion. Now I'm sure there are a bunch of people who bubba-ed a full auto conversion and wrecked a good gun. Got full auto for half a mag or a few mags before it jammed up internally or fired out of battery.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

.

So you can get a MG in MN as long as you pay the tax and it was built before 1968?



Does that give the government a right to enter your home at any time and check?

.

 

[mboylan]

As long as you get BATF approval, you can buy a transferable machine gun. It must have been registered to a civilian before May 19, 1986. The tax is $200. You must either be fingerprinted and get CLEO permission or form a living trust. The approval process is taking 3-6 months right now.

The biggest issues are finding someone who is selling something you want and paying for it. An average M16 runs anywhere from $12000-$16000. An average AK will run you $14000-$18000. An average MP5 runs $16000-$20000. Uzis go on the cheap side $7000-$8000.

No, you don't have to fulfill FFL inspection requirements. You just need to keep you approved Form 4 with your weapon at all times.

 

[cauberallies]

I think it may be possible to some extent if it was brought up at the right time, but then again I'm optimistic to begin with.

I think something like this may work. You would have to take a class, or series of classes, and be able to pass a test, and a background check to get a license to own machine guns. You would have to renew this license annually or biannually. The tax stamp for machine guns could be increased to $500, with strict storage requirements, and a zero-tolerance policy for infractions that could get your license pulled. First infraction, if not a major infraction, would get your license revoked for a year. Second infraction, or if the first one is considered "major", your license will be revoked permanantly.


Yes, it's pretty ridiculous, but it would make machine guns more accessible to middle-class Joe Citizen, while at the same time making sure that they will only be available to upstanding people who will take ownership of such things very seriously, and keeping the risk of them falling into the wrong hands to a minimum. I really think that if it were introduced at the right time, and in the right manner, it could be possible, but what do I know?

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

The biggest issues are finding someone who is selling something you want and paying for it. An average M16 runs anywhere from $12000-$16000. An average AK will run you $14000-$18000. An average MP5 runs $16000-$20000. Uzis go on the cheap side $7000-$8000.

MACs run for around 3,000 - 5,000

 

[mboylan]

I think it may be possible to some extent if it was brought up at the right time, but then again I'm optimistic to begin with.

I think something like this may work. You would have to take a class, or series of classes, and be able to pass a test, and a background check to get a license to own machine guns. You would have to renew this license annually or biannually. The tax stamp for machine guns could be increased to $500, with strict storage requirements, and a zero-tolerance policy for infractions that could get your license pulled. First infraction, if not a major infraction, would get your license revoked for a year. Second infraction, or if the first one is considered "major", your license will be revoked permanantly.


Yes, it's pretty ridiculous, but it would make machine guns more accessible to middle-class Joe Citizen, while at the same time making sure that they will only be available to upstanding people who will take ownership of such things very seriously, and keeping the risk of them falling into the wrong hands to a minimum. I really think that if it were introduced at the right time, and in the right manner, it could be possible, but what do I know?

I don't see the Hughes amendment going away. I do not agree with it.

Cost is relative. The cost to feed these things is beyond the average middle-class Joe Citizen to begin with. If you can't afford $32000 for an M60 you can't afford to feed it.

If you reload M16s and subguns are expensive, but doable.

 

[Yellowfin]

The Hughes Amendment can and will be struck down on the basis that it is legally unsound. It is nonsensical to say that an M16 pre '86 is safe to own while an identical one post '86 isn't. No other such law stands up to legal scrutiny.

 

[daskro]

Cost is relative. The cost to feed these things is beyond the average middle-class Joe Citizen to begin with. If you can't afford $32000 for an M60 you can't afford to feed it.

I think what cauberallies is trying to say is if the registry was opened the value of many of these machine guns would drastically go down, say to post-86 dealer sample prices if not lower. While I agree with you the ammo cost would be a barrier since one would have to spend nearly an order of magnitude more on ammo for regular shooting.
If the registry was opened you'd see a flood of RDIAS, lightning links, autosears, and numerous other easily manufactured NFA items.

 

[mboylan]

The point of the Hughes amendment was to limit the supply to existing weapons. This causes the number of automatic weapons in civilian hands to be a little bit lower every year.

The Hughes amendment has already been upheld in court. It's not going away anytime soon. Since 1934, the govenment has used cost to restrict full-autos. That $200 tax was 3 months wages in 1934.