Winchester Small Rifle (WSR) primers and AR type guns

Status
Not open for further replies.
Slamfires are very real phenomena with semiautomatic mechanisms. People attribute slamfires to mechanical things, like stuck firing pins, grease in the firing pin hole, hammer following the bolt, all of which will cause a slamfire, but when it comes to primer sensitivity, folks just will not acknowledge this as a factor, instead you get absolute denial.

Imagine this, you have a primer and a firing pin with sufficient energy to ignite the primer. What happens when the firing pin hits the primer?; the primer goes off. Imagine you have a free floating firing pin attached to a rapidly moving bolt carrier and a round is being fed into the chamber. And before the trigger is pulled the firing pin hits the primer with sufficient energy to ignite the primer. What happens?; the primer goes off. If the primer goes off before the bolt is in battery you have an “out of battery” incident. That is likely to be a destructive event.

The SKS with a free floating firing pin is particularly susceptible to slamfires. So is the M1 Garand and the M14 mechanism. The original M16 configuration had slamfires in service so the military redesigned the firing pin to make it lighter. If you notice the FN/FAL firing pin is spring loaded, so are Russian SKS designs, and so are the AR10 designs. All needed to keep a sensitive primer going off when hit by a rapidly moving firing pin.

I used sheaves of WSR primers when they were nickel plated. They were excellent But around 1999, Winchester changed their primer by eliminating the “nickel” finish to a “brass” finish. I called Winchester to find out what this change has done to primer sensititivity. Per telephone conversation with Mr. Chris Huseman at Winchester Group, Olin Corporation 618-258-3565, the old WLR primer had a zinc plating on the cup. Mr. Huseman said the material was zinc, (even though I thought it was nickel). Anyway, Winchester removed that plating, perhaps with other changes, to make their primers more sensitive. The product change was specifically targeted to “combat light firing pin hits and off center strikes.” Which is of course is fine for bolt guns, revolvers, or monkeyed with auto pistols, but is something you do not need in a military action or a gas gun. The result of making the cups thinner is pierced primers and the occasional slamfire.

I had one slamfire in the AR, I dropped a round in the chamber, during the standing stage, and released the bolt. The round took a divot of dirt out in front of the firing line. It was a new brass WSR primer in the case. The next shooter on my point did the same thing, dropped a .223 round in with a Fed Match primer and also got a slamfire. I seat my rifle primers by hand with a Lee Primer and inspect each primer. I did not have a high primer.

Something to remember about AR’s, if you can, single load through the magazine. If you drop a round in the chamber, hold the bolt back using the charging rod, trip the bolt release, lower the bolt about half way, then release the charging rod. Finally bump the forward assist. It is always good practice to bump the forward assist on the first round, mag fed or port fed.

CCI is the only manufacturer who claims to make a “Mil Spec’ primer. When talked with CCI, I was told that these primers are less sensitive than commercial and are magnum primers. I have used CCI#41 in my match AR’s for years now, shot my absolute best long range scores at Camp Perry with them (didn’t clean the target but came close). I am surprised that someone else has had a problem with them.

Because primer sensitivity equipment is not available (like chronographs), people can’t test primer lots and see the varying levels of energy it takes to ignite primers. They also don’t know the kinetic energy of the free floating firing pin. The “conventional wisdom” is that all primers are the same and therefore slamfires are only due to high primers. This assumption is false, but I don’t have the data to prove it. And neither do the people who insist that primers are all the same, or that primers don’t vary from lot to lot, or even from primer to primer.

I do believe that a high primer will cause a slamfire. But an overly sensitive primer will occasionally ignite even if properly seated. It may be one in 50,000, it might be one in 1,000,000. But it has happened, does happen, will happen.
 
I've only loaded a few thousand, 5,000+ 223 shells for use in my AR-15's, 99% of those with Winchester small rifle primers with no issues of any kind.

Imagine this, you have a primer and a firing pin with sufficient energy to ignite the primer. What happens when the firing pin hits the primer?; the primer goes off. Imagine you have a free floating firing pin attached to a rapidly moving bolt carrier and a round is being fed into the chamber. And before the trigger is pulled the firing pin hits the primer with sufficient energy to ignite the primer. What happens?; the primer goes off. If the primer goes off before the bolt is in battery you have an “out of battery” incident. That is likely to be a destructive event.

One difference with the AR design is that the firing pin in an AR cannot reach the primer till the bolt is locked, so while a slam fire is possible, it shouldn't happen with an open bolt.
 
So far the ratio of "Winchester primers are not recommended, I get pierced primers all the time with them" and "I have loaded Xthousand rounds with them, they are fine" is around 1:1. It would appear that this really is a problem with some ARs. The question is, why?
 
How big of a truck do you have to get hit with before it makes an impression!!??

Seems to me that 50% of the people reporting a problem with Winchester primers has met an extremely high threshold for showing that there is a problem. Medical drugs fail if there is a one in a million chance (or is it one in ten million?) of an ill effect, and here you have 50%, and that is not good enough for you.?!!

Well let me recommend that you go buy a sheaf of Winchester primers, load your favorite loads, and if they work well, be happy. However, instead, if primer piercing causes you eat up a bunch of $7.50 firing pins, chalk it up to experience, or, if you are particularly stupid, coincidence.
 
Slamfire: I believe you may have missed where I wrote that I purchased some CCI BR4 primers, with a cup thickness of 0.004" greater than the WSRs. So yes, 50% is far too great for me to want to take chances with.
 
Let me throw my two cents in here. I have used Winchester Small Rifle, Remington 7.5, and Remington 6.5 primers extensively for my AR's.

I have found that for a given load, the Winchesters flatten out much more. In fact, usually with the same load, the Remington's , either variety, look as good a new--except for the firing pin hit.

I don't know what to make of it. Sometimes I think that the Winchester primers are a bit hotter.

I am well aware of the fact that Rem 7.5's a supposed to have a harder cup and use them when loading "hot". The availablity of Rem 7.5's is quite spotty around here (Springfield, MO) lately, however.
 
When I get primer piercing with a known load I cut the load. In a .223 I will cut it by a half a grain and see what happens. In my Krieger barreled AR I had to cut a N135 load (using the 69 Sierra) from 23.0 grains N135 to 21.5 grains to stop the new brass WSR primers from piercing. Had to cut all my loads with the brass WSP and got tired of changing out firing pins. I think the last of them have been loaded up and I ain’t buying any more.

Instead I have been using CCI #41’s.

I have to replace a M70 bolt because the firing pin hole was so large that the primer would flow into it. I guess that if someone ever pierced enough primers erosion would enlarge the firing pin hole, and that would require the bolt to be replaced.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top