Wisconsin: Police State, B'gosh

[FedDC]

Ok there obi, I let a lot of crap go by because many people just don't know and don't know that they don't know anything about law...but what you just posted is way out of bounds.

That bunch of drug dealing, murdering, race baiting scum in Denver that is fighting the PD needs to be taken out and horse whipped. They are up in arms over 2 shootings, both of which are 100% justified. Heck, in one case the suspect was charging at the officer with the knife in hand! But, like many things, the race of the suspect was different than that of the officer (Enter the race baiters) and it became political. Both of those officers were unfairly punished and in one case suspened without pay for several months. If you want the real story of Denver, try this site.

http://thebrokenbadge.com/

 

[2nd Amendment]

You may well be right, FedDC, but your credibility is already in such tatters from all the other foolishness you've posted that nobody actually knows...or cares...

 

[Sindawe]

And what of the officers who shot and killed Mr. Mena in Denver a few years back, where THEY unfairly punished?

I've seen images of these flyers, mostly on the news shortly after this last killing by Denver PD. While provokative and 'over the top', I think they do give voice to a sentiment that is increasing in Denver, and across the county (based on the tone of some posts here on THR and other sites). As I've pointed out before, LEO's are loosing support of the people they serve. Some times by millimeters over months, sometimes by kilometers in a few seconds.

FEDDC: As far as thebrokenbadge.com goes, I have doubts about it being the 'true story', since it looks like its run by a cop based on the text on the main page. I've not called up the number for the admin contact on that site to confirm or deny same, since it looks like a residential address in Aurora. Feels to me more like a propoganda site for the cops in Denver.

 

[joab]

That bunch of drug dealing, murdering, race baiting scum in Denver that is fighting the PD

I wasn't aware the NEFF members had been identified

They are up in arms over 2 shootings, both of which are 100% justified

They are up in arms over 11 iquestionable shootings in 16 months

If you want the real story of Denver, try this site.

So tou are saying that the only people to be trusted with the story are the very one's who's actions are being questioned. Why would I trust their take anymore than the other affected people.

both of which are 100% justified

Please justify the level of training it takes to mistake a soda can for a gun. If I did the same thing on the street would you be as fast to defend my actions.

You may well be right, FedDC, but your credibility is already in such tatters from all the other foolishness you've posted that nobody actually knows...or cares...

Yep

 

[Powderman]

Please justify the level of training it takes to mistake a soda can for a gun. If I did the same thing on the street would you be as fast to defend my actions.

Please tell me how easy it is to identify a deadly weapon in a person's hand during less than optimal conditions.

A study was done by Caliber Press, a law enforcement training organization to determine just how long it took for a person to draw and fire a round (not aimed) at a close-in target.

The time? Nine-hundredths of a second. That's .09 seconds.

Faster than your eyes can blink.

Yes, mistakes do happen--and just saying that won't bring that person back. If the cop has a conscience, what happened there will be a waking nightmare for the rest of their life.

But, I hope you get the point--in less time than your eyes can blink, a cop had to make a choice between life and death. And what if he had chosen the other route--and that WAS a gun coming up in the other guy's hand?

Would you all be so quick to condemn?

Would you all be sad--for a few minutes, saying the requisite words of regret, and then--well, hi-ho, it's off tothe next thread?

Do you really, REALLY know what it's like to go into something that you KNOW is going bad, and thinking, "Well, at least I kissed my wife goodbye today".

And some of you are saying that fliers being put out that put bounties on a cop's life are actually understandable? Is it that acceptable to just kill us?

Is this what the "high road" is all about?

Maybe one or more of you will one day meet me, and say "Hey! There's Powderman! and just start blasting away. Is that what I have to look forward to?

Is that what WE--as cops--have to look forward to?

 

[ojibweindian]

Ok there obi, I let a lot of crap go by because many people just don't know and don't know that they don't know anything about law...but what you just posted is way out of bounds.

I posted it as an fyi, nothing more. It is neither tacit or implicit approval.

Seems to me that you're a little touchy about the "LEO bashing". I suppose I would be, too, if I were working in a profession that has been garnering a lot of downright bad PR.

But, Fed, what do you expect to see happen when people hear about the instances of gross behavior and misconduct by "the boys in blue", hugs and kisses? Like it or not, you are part of a profession that has, in one fashion or another, been sadled with a terrible reputation. To change it, and avoid the obviously bad repercussions of it, something needs to change.

 

[FedDC]

Wow, so you can't attack my argument, so you attack my perceived credibility. That says a lot.

Being perceived as incorrect by folks that neither know, nor care to be educated on the law is not what I consider a bad thing.

 

[ojibweindian]

Is that what WE--as cops--have to look forward to?

Quite possibly, if the undesirables in your profession continue to do those cute little things like sodomize a guy with a broom stick.

 

[spartacus2002]

Please read the recent thread on Why We Need Civility on The High Road and stop the personal attacks.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94668

 

[molonlabe]

This thread is digressing

Yup, Mistakes do happen.

http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/08/17/drugWarVictims.html

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/whackstack.php

But I am absolutely certain that all these people deserved to die.

LEO on this board, Stevie wonder could see there’s a credibility gap about LE among what you would call the Sheeple. Remarks as what I have seen on this board from both sides only widen that gap. The press will not and I hope never will stop reporting these incidents because when they do we will truly be in a Police State.

And on the other side there is.
http://www.nleomf.com/

So To protect and Serve means exactly what?

 

[DMF]

As far as thebrokenbadge.com goes, I have doubts about it being the 'true story', since it looks like its run by a cop based on the text on the main page.

Well I happen to agree that you should consider the bias of the person that put together that website and the information on it.

HOWEVER, why is that you, and others here, only question the validity of the stories you don't agree with, but will take anything that comes from WIG Owners, Inc., NRA, GOA, or any crackpot that posts a story on the internet bashing cops as the gospel truth?

The word hypocrisy comes to mind.

 

[insidious_calm]

wait a min.....

A study was done by Caliber Press, a law enforcement training organization to determine just how long it took for a person to draw and fire a round (not aimed) at a close-in target.

The time? Nine-hundredths of a second. That's .09 seconds.

Faster than your eyes can blink.

I'm gonna call BS on this. NOONE can draw and fire in .09 NOONE! Not you me or anyone else. You should reflect on some of your training and personal experience before making such a statement.


I.C.

 

[Powderman]

I'm gonna call BS on this. NOONE can draw and fire in .09 NOONE! Not you me or anyone else. You should reflect on some of your training and personal experience before making such a statement.

First of all, sport, do a little bit of research before you attack.

The time quoted above was for someone that ALREADY HAD A GUN IN THEIR HAND.

Second, you have no idea what my training and experience is. Trust me, you have absolutely NO idea what my training and experience is.

Third, the fastest VERIFIED shot IN THE WORLD was done by a gentleman named Bob Munden, who is the Browning factory rep, and a gunsmith. He has a recorded and verified draw to shot time, FROM A HOLSTER, of .02 seconds.

That's two hundredths of ONE second, verified.


Like I said, do some research before you try to attack, fella.

 

[Mal H]

Don't be too sure about that, insidious_calm. There is a gentleman by the name of Bob Munden who can draw and shoot in around .02 seconds or less, and there are many others like him. I wouldn't be surprised if a good percentage of trained handgunners can draw and fire in 1/10th of a second. I am not including the reaction time required to make the decision to draw, just the actual draw and fire time with hand already on the gun.

[Edit]
Powderman and I were posting at the same time.

 

[ojibweindian]

Bob Munden is definitely NOT your everyday, run-of-the-mill pistolero. I would like to ask, though, is the 0.09 seconds qouted refer to the time it takes for an average person to draw and fire, or a trained/practiced individual?

 

[Powderman]

OK. Now that I've calmed down a bit, and can trust myself to type without being REALLY abrasive, here goes:

insidious_calm, here's something to chew on.

I can't cite the court case off hand, but this was done in response to a charge of manslaughter brought against a cop in a shooting situation. The post mortem showed three entry wounds in the BACK of the perp. The cop maintained that the perp had turned on him and fired once, and the cop had returned fire.

The test was done with about 6 different people, and the findings were startling.

The mean time that it took for someone with a gun IN THIER HAND to turn, fire, turn again and start running was right at .11 seconds. The time from the start of movement to the shot was .09 seconds.

This meant that in the time it took the cop's brain to register that he was in danger, HE HAD ALREADY BEEN SHOT AT, AND THE BULLET HAD PASSED HIM. By the time the cop had fired--also from a drawn gun--the perp had turned and had actually taken a running step, AWAY FROM THE COP.

Human beings can move darned fast when they want to.

Now, a question. How did this move from unlawful search and seizure to once again threatening to kill cops?

 

[joab]

Please tell me how easy it is to identify a deadly weapon in a person's hand during less than optimal conditions.

Sorry but it don't work with me, anybody that would mistake a soda can for a gun has not had enough training or does not have the proper temperment for the job. I have heard that excuse used so much that it is tiresome.

Yes, mistakes do happen--and just saying that won't bring that person back. If the cop has a conscience, what happened there will be a waking nightmare for the rest of their life.

You're right about this. However he should live with that waking nightmare while working in a different profession.

 

[ojibweindian]

Circle them waggons!

 

[Ironbarr]

I'm outta here.

 

[cracked butt]

Just because a person can draw and fire in .09 seconds, doesn't mean they should, once that trigger is pulled, there is no way to recall it, no do-overs, and no way to undo the damage that is done. If a cop cannot determine the difference between a soda can and a gun in enough time to stop his trigger finger, then maybe he should be in a different line of work entirely.
I thought the motto was "Serve and Protect" not "Shoot then CYA"

 

[hammer4nc]

First off, the "bounty" posters are wrong and counterproductive.

However, the statement:

They are up in arms over 2 shootings, both of which are 100% justified. Heck, in one case the suspect was charging at the officer with the knife in hand!

Refers to the Paul Childs shooting, which cost the taxpayers $1.325 million. In addition,

Officer James Turney was suspended for 10 months without pay for showing bad judgment in the incident and placing himself in a position where he felt he had to shoot the youth.

Here's an open question for leo's: Exactly what has to happen, before any police shooting will be condemned by fellow officers? If, in light of the system deciding for a $million+ payout; and suspension of the officer in this case, other officers can rant about a killing being "100% justified"???

It is abundantly clear that under no circumstances, will these officers criticize fellow officers over a shooting, or other act of violence. Thats fine, and they are entitled to express their opinion. However, they risk being branded as "advocates", and their objective credibility begins to be questioned. You can't have it both ways.

 

[liliysdad]

No, I wont criticize another officer for a shooting, any shooting, unless I am present to see it happen. Otherthan that, there are too many variables for a monday morning quarterback to see from outside the fence.

 

[FedDC]

Just FYI, james turney was standing at the bottom of a stairway and a man charged down those stairs at him with a knife in an attempt to kill him. Officer turney fired in immediate defence of life. It does not get any clearer than that and nobody ever disputed the danger to the life of the officer. The problems arose bc it was a white officer killing a black suspect in a black part of town...must be racism.

Officer turney became a political pawn and was wrongly punished for defending his life. I doubt that anyone on this site would sit by and let a knife weilding man kill them before firing.

 

[flatrock]

Here's an open question for leo's: Exactly what has to happen, before any police shooting will be condemned by fellow officers? If, in light of the system deciding for a $million+ payout; and suspension of the officer in this case, other officers can rant about a killing being "100% justified"???

I'm not an LEO, I'm also not familiar with the Pal Childs incident.

I am a bit more familiar with the incident where the "disabled" person was shot.

The police new in advance that there were two career criminals in the house. They knew one of the two was violent.

The "disabled" man didn't drop what he had in his hand, and the officer mistook the shiny object for a gun. I wasn't there, but I can see how that a person who looks to be pointing something at you who you knows has a criminal history is likely to get shot. If you're confronted by the police, drop whatever you're holding and make no sudden moves.

No the guy wasn't a threat, and in a perfect world he wouldn't have been shot. However, that doesn't mean that the officers actions weren't reasonable. Officers have a duty to enforce the law that makes for confrontations that can have tragic results. It's best if you can avoid the confrontation, however it's not always possible.

The police had a valid reason to enter the home. The guy who got shot made a mistake, and the officer acted in what he believed to be self defense.

As for the settlements that police departments pay... Well, they settle because they know that a jury is likely to award a huge sum to the family of someone shot by an officer unless it was very clearly necessisary to shoot.

The officer doesn't get a choice in the matter. He can fully believe that he did nothing wrong, but he can't fight the settlement, because he isn't the one settling.

There are officers that will never admit another officer was wrong. There are also people that will never accept any ratiuonal reasoning for an officer shooting someone, unless the officer was shot first.

 

[flatrock]

Just because a person can draw and fire in .09 seconds, doesn't mean they should, once that trigger is pulled, there is no way to recall it, no do-overs, and no way to undo the damage that is done. If a cop cannot determine the difference between a soda can and a gun in enough time to stop his trigger finger, then maybe he should be in a different line of work entirely.
I thought the motto was "Serve and Protect" not "Shoot then CYA"

If the person you're dealing with gives you a clear and unobstructed view of what they have in their hands, you aren't likely to mistake a pop can for a gun. There are lots of instances where police are involved in arrests where they do properly figure out what the person is holding. You don't hear about those. You hear about the very rare instance where someone gets shot and the officer mistook somehting in their hand for a weapon.

You apparently thing the officer should take longer to make sure of what the person is holding. Well, if it is a gun, you don't have time.

As for the .09 second draw B. S.? Why are you bringing that crap into this discussion. I doubt that the officer does sub one second draws from a retention holster, and in this case I highly doubt he was drawing and shooting. He likely had his gun out before entering the premesis.

You're projecting opinions that have absolutely nothing to do with the officers situation into you're decision as to if the shooting was justified. You're making the decision that he acted improperly out of ignorance rather than from the facts.

Have a little more respect for the people that put their lives on the line to enforce the law than to call them a murder based on very few facts when the facts don't disprove that it was self defense.