If some of the FBI agents hadn't complained about the recoil of the 10mm nor created a "light" load for it do you think the .40 would have still been created since this is what it was the answear to?Granted I have my history correct.
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Would .40S&W even exist if?
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Phantom Warrior
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I'm no expert, but I think the .40 or something like it would have come along eventually. People are always trying to shoehorn a bigger bullet into a smaller package. Look at the development of 6.8mm SPC for the military for example. Bigger bullet on the M-16 frame. Or the .50GI giving you a .50 bullet in a 1911 .45 frame. Given the big gap between the relatively small 9mm and the fat .45 (or slimmer but still long 10mm) I think something in between would have happened eventually.
surfinUSA
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Recoil was only one issue. The 10mm requires a large framed gun, which of course are big and usually heavy. The story of the 10mm and the 41 mag in police use closely parallel each other.
Those asking for the 41 mag wanted a a 40 cal, 200gr bullet moving at about 1000fps (sounds almost like the 180 gr 40 S&W). Instead they got a 41 mag police load that was approx. 40 cal, 210 gr moving at 1200 fps (sounds like the 180 or 200 gr 10mm) and a 210 gr hunting load moving at 1400fps (sounds like a Double tap 10mm).
Cops and police experts have been asking for a round that is basically a 40 S&W for a long time its no surprise to me that it has taken the police sector by storm. Especially since it fits in a 9mm sized gun and pretty muchs drops them dead right there.
The 41 AE and its rebated rim was destined to go nowhere. But it was a nice idea for dual caliber guns with just a barrel, magazine and recoil spring change.
Those asking for the 41 mag wanted a a 40 cal, 200gr bullet moving at about 1000fps (sounds almost like the 180 gr 40 S&W). Instead they got a 41 mag police load that was approx. 40 cal, 210 gr moving at 1200 fps (sounds like the 180 or 200 gr 10mm) and a 210 gr hunting load moving at 1400fps (sounds like a Double tap 10mm).
Cops and police experts have been asking for a round that is basically a 40 S&W for a long time its no surprise to me that it has taken the police sector by storm. Especially since it fits in a 9mm sized gun and pretty muchs drops them dead right there.
The 41 AE and its rebated rim was destined to go nowhere. But it was a nice idea for dual caliber guns with just a barrel, magazine and recoil spring change.
Preacherman
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Actually, ballistically speaking, the .40 S&W has been around in equivalent form for well over a century! The old .38-40 had a 180gr. bullet moving at 980 fps in blackpowder form. When the FBI "downloaded" the 10mm. to this level, they simply duplicated the old .38-40 (which no-one ever called a "poor man-stopper", BTW). All that S&W did was to take the same power level and adapt it to a smaller case, which fit into smaller-framed pistols, and allowed magazine capacities approaching those of 9mm. pistols, but with a more powerful round.
surfinUSA
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Preacherman,
For the reasons both of us have stated I'm always surprised when people especially 10mm people put down the 40 S&W as short &weak etc. The 10mm is an excellent round, but so is the forty. It does exactly what it was designed to do and does it well.
For the reasons both of us have stated I'm always surprised when people especially 10mm people put down the 40 S&W as short &weak etc. The 10mm is an excellent round, but so is the forty. It does exactly what it was designed to do and does it well.
surfinUSA said:Recoil was only one issue. The 10mm requires a large framed gun, which of course are big and usually heavy.
QUOTE]
I forgot about frame size of the gun when I made my post.Now that it has been mentioned I can't think of another auto pistol round between the 9mm and the .45 unless you count the .357sig but that is probably another discussion in itself.
Lord Bodak
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The increase in concealed carry, combined with the AWB limiting magazines, seemed to lead to more compact handguns. I think the demand for something more like a .45 but in a 9mm package for carry led to the popularity of .40S&W, if not its initial development.
Phantom Warrior
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I think the demand for something more like a .45 but in a 9mm package for carry led to the popularity of .40S&W, if not its initial development.
I hope I'm not boring anyone, but it was my understanding that the .40S&W came into being because of the FBI. The story I heard was that after the Miama shootout the FBI wanted something with more power than 9mm, so they went to 10mm. The recoil was too stiff for many of the female agents and agents with small hands, so the FBI downloaded the 10mm. To the same .38-40 specs Preacherman mentioned earlier. Smith&Wesson realized they could get the same performance (as the FBI's 10mm load) in a shorter cartridge and cram it into a 9mm size frame to boot. And thus the .40S&W was born. Am I correct on this score?
I do agree wholeheartedly that the demand for something like .45 in a 9mm frame has driven the popularity of .45 though. Heck, I carry a Glock 23 in .40S&W.
EDITED TO ADD: I guess I may have not understood your post correctly. If I I'm wrong on what you meant, disregard this post.
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