WWI-WWII era high powered revolvers

[CraigC]

.38 WCF was a pretty peppy Revolver Cartridge far as the latter 19th Century and early 20th was concerned...and is not bad at all even by to-day's standards.

Yep! Even standard loads safe in Colt SAA's and Winchester `73 replicas rocket a 180gr RNFP to 1200fps in sixguns and 1550fps out of rifles. I've been playing with my Uberti 1873 Sporting Rifle with a 180gr Gold Dot at 1470fps and it does a hell of a job on smaller critters.

 

[Chris95]

The most powerful handguns were the cap and ball colt walkers until 1935 with the introduction of .357 magnum and then .41 mag sometime AFTER world war 2 the .44 mag replacing the .41 sometime in the 70's

 

[levallois]

32-20 has always been a favorite of mine.

 

[CraigC]

The most powerful handguns were the cap and ball colt walkers until 1935 with the introduction of .357 magnum and then .41 mag sometime AFTER world war 2 the .44 mag replacing the .41 sometime in the 70's

That depends entirely on how you quantify "power" or whether or not you consider the work of handloaders and experimenters relevant to the conversation. At any rate, the .38-44 was a legitimate factory cartridge that fully eclipsed the old Walker before the advent of the .357Mag. The Walker's 1100fps is impressive but we must remember that was with roundball. Great for stopping men but a very poor penetrator. The .38-44 sported a 158gr FMJ at 1100fps. Keith's .38-44 load with his 173gr cast bullet at 1350fps was even better.

The .44Mag (1956) came out BEFORE the .41Mag (1964).

 

[.45FMJoe]

If you consider what the handloaders and experimenters were doing, anything in the .38-44/.357 (thank Phil Sharpe), the various .401 wildcats (Gordon Boser and Pop Eimer) as well as Elmer Keith's and John Lachuk's .44 work well eclipses the Colt Walker. The .38-40 was no slouch either with 1200fps easily attained in the Colt SAA without excessive pressures.

I would thank Elmer Kieth more than Phil Sharpe for the .357 Magnum round. In a nutshell, Sharpe really just reduced Keith's #358429 bullet in size to fit the n-frame cylinder in the longer magnum cases. Well, that's my opinion anyway.

 

[.45FMJoe]

The most powerful handguns were the cap and ball colt walkers until 1935 with the introduction of .357 magnum and then .41 mag sometime AFTER world war 2 the .44 mag replacing the .41 sometime in the 70's

Your timetable is seriously amiss! The .41 Magnum came out after the .44 Magnum, in 1964. In fact, S&W discontinued the Model 58 in about 1977 IIRC...

 

[CraigC]

John Taffin lends more credit to Sharpe than Keith for the development of the .357Mag and that is good enough for me.

 

[.45FMJoe]

John Taffin lends more credit to Sharpe than Keith for the development of the .357Mag and that is good enough for me.

I read that article as well, and it pissed me off. Taffin is usually pretty good but he gave Sharpe too much credit and Keith not enough credit for the .357 Magnum cartridge.

 

[StrawHat]

Chris95

The most powerful handguns were the cap and ball colt walkers until 1935 with the introduction of .357 magnum and then .41 mag sometime AFTER world war 2 the .44 mag replacing the .41 sometime in the 70's

Yep, it may have been the must powerful, unused revovler of the era. As much fun as it is to shoot replica Walkers and play "what if", the fact is there not a lot of them made and a good portion of those needed to have the cylinders replaced due to poor steel. Of the remaining ones, many of those were put to rest when lighter, handier revolvers were introduced. I enjoy my Walker but really shoot my cartridge revolvers much more than the Walker. Now, my 1860s are another story...

 

[Deaf Smith]

O.K. somebody needs to mention Gen. George S. Patton's 3 1/2" S&W .357 Registered Magnum he carried before & during WWII.
Shipped on 18 October 1935.

View attachment 507292

rc

But I wonder, what did Patton use for ammo? He could not use lead SWC due to the Hauge convention, so what kind of FMJ did he use?

Deaf

 

[Sam Cade]

Nothing in the Hauge Accords against simple lead bullets....and if Patton carried whatever he felt like that day

 

[CraigC]

I read that article as well, and it pissed me off.

What article? I don't particularly want to get into a big argument about it but the general consensus has always that Phil Sharpe deserves more credit for the .357 than Keith. Keith's work centered more around the .44Spl. Taffin is notorious for giving credit where it is due and a long time supporter of Keith and his work. So to imply that Taffin is somehow railroading Keith is more than a little silly.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Nothing in the Hauge Accords against simple lead bullets....and if Patton carried whatever he felt like that day

The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in international warfare of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

And .357 lead bullets made in the '30s were so soft they leaded the barrels of .357 magnums badly. They no doubt flatten and thus even military 12 gauge buckshot was copper coated.

So I still ask, what did Patton use? Has anyone shown

Deaf

 

[Sam Cade]

Ill be durned. Learn something new everyday.

"After a period of service, it was realized that the 200 gr (13 g) soft lead bullet could arguably contravene the Hague Convention, which outlawed the use of bullets designed so as to "expand or flatten easily in the human body". A new cartridge was therefore adopted into Commonwealth Service as "Cartridge, Pistol, .380" Mk II" or ".380 Mk IIz", firing a 180 gr (11.7 g) full metal jacket round."--From the .380/200 wiki

 

[buttrap]

Patton used the standard army issue .38 loads they issued back then.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

wasn't there a predecessor to the .357? A "hotrodded" .38? Can't remember the actual designation.

That's the .38/44 -- the designation meaning a .38 Special in a .44 frame. Developed by Winchester for Smith and Wesson, there were warnings on the box, "For use in Smith and Wesson .38/44 revolvers only."

Finally someone woke up and smelled the coffee and realised it doesn't matter what warnings you put on the box, somebody is going to fire this thing in a little dinky .38 Special. So the case was lenghtened about 0.1" and the .357 Magnum was born.