DMK
Member
Most folks want it because it is loaded hot. That gives one higher velocities and a greater chance of terminal fragmentation. The rest want it because they heard the others saying it was good ammo to get.
XM193 kaboom
- Thread starter Cougfan2
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No problem. I haven't fired too many rounds out of my private stock recently to really be on top of all that. I appreciate the clarification, sir.
Well you posted one incident from 2 different forums.
And you will notice that there is question about exactly what ammo was in use. The thread discusses a possibility of it being Prvi Partizan. That is still under discussion. From the thread you posted:
Prvi Partisan doesn't make "real" M193, they just sell a similar loading under that name. There's no telling what ammo blew that rifle up, at the posters own admission.
So basically you have a thread with one damaged rifle that probably wasn't using XM193 and you consider that firm documentation that the ammo is low quality and should not be used.
Mmmmmmkay.....
And of course the other usual claim that "it's factory rejects", always offered with no proof of any kind at all.
By all means, if you question the ammo at all don't use it, but there is no evidence that the ammo is inferior. If there is real evidence of it being defective or some kind of "reject" I'd certainly love to see it.
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Yes it is the same issue that started the thread. But read the comments by the people on there. Especially M4C. XM193 has known issues. I don't understand why people are so admant about defending it when it has a so-so track record.
Just wanting to see some kind of evidence of these known issues. Do you have any?
Threads like that are not any kind of "proof". These threads are all the same, including the ones you post. They all make the claim of "credible sources" knowing of issues with the ammo but none of them ever actually show these "credible sources" or any of the documentation on why this is true.
Stuff in these threads like "many members have pressure tested XM193". Horse crap. Do you have any idea the cost of equipment needed to pressure test ammo?
Then the "many instructors tell me they see kabooms all the time". OK, names, dates, places, and maybe pictures, ammo lot numbers. Should be pretty easy to come up with since it happens all the time. Let's see it.
Some kind of real evidence should exist, especially if the stuff is as bad as many claim. All I'm asking is to see it.
What happens quite often is what you posted, some guy buys some generic "m193" junk online, it blows his gun up, and all of a sudden he's posting online that "XM193 kaboomed my gun", which turns out to be untrue.
And then there's the 200 postings about "X means rejected", "X means experimental", "X means whatever". Again with no proof. Think about what this is saying. If all XM193 ammo is factory rejected ammo then ATK must have the worst factory on the planet to crank out millions of failed rounds to sell on the civilian market. Drunk monkeys with a Dillon press could do better numbers than that.
Saw one thread that swore up and down that XM193PD meant higher chamber pressures. PD means bulk packed according to ATK. Maybe they are just lying to trick us?..... again, people making it up as they go.
You will forgive me if I require a bit more evidence than postings on an Internet forum.
The most likely reality is that since XM193 is the most popular ammo, it will see more failures than any other brand. That's just simple math.
You read about more Glock kabooms than Rohrbaugh kabooms for the very same reason.
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Maverick223
Member
rskent
Member
I have only had problem with a factory round once. Not a KB or anything, but I did have one slam fire in my AR.
It was on an XM193. Dropped the bolt, Bang. That was a surprise. The case looked like it had a high primer. I
don’t want to condemn Federal over one isolated incident. I am not running out to buy any more either.
Steve
It was on an XM193. Dropped the bolt, Bang. That was a surprise. The case looked like it had a high primer. I
don’t want to condemn Federal over one isolated incident. I am not running out to buy any more either.
Steve
Well, RockyMtnTactical, the way I see it is that if all of these people aren't buying it because of hyped up catastrophic failure stories, that leaves more of this stuff for you and me. 
Maverick223
Member
rskent
Member
RockyMtnTactical
No Doubt, it can, and will happen with any ammo. Truth is, I just prefer to just roll my own.
Steve
No Doubt, it can, and will happen with any ammo. Truth is, I just prefer to just roll my own.
Steve
I don't often disagree with texasrifleman, but in this case, I have to. Sorry I'm late to this thread as I have been traveling, and it will probably be thurs before i can go search for documentation, which will probably be 2nd hand anyway (from my notes at carbine classes, most likely).
I also won't debate with rockymtn the popularity of xm193 but i will hazard a guess that it has a good reputation with some because 94% of arfcomers shoot their arfs off a bench. It has a poor reputation at carbine classes and I think it's because it pops primers with alarming regularity. (I'm not aware of any kabooms, though my memory is certainly not authoritative)
My understanding is that the x is unequivocally rejected as out of spec, but not 'dangerous'. It's mostly for stuff like bad seals around the case neck and primer pocket.
also, prvi does make m193 to spec afaik, i'll swap you your documentation to the contrary . (fwiw, i've shot over 6000 rnds of it now without a single ammo-related issue). prvi m855 totally sucks. do not buy that ammo. i've no idea why one is so good and the other so bad.
I also won't debate with rockymtn the popularity of xm193
but i will hazard a guess that it has a good reputation with some because 94% of arfcomers shoot their arfs off a bench. It has a poor reputation at carbine classes and I think it's because it pops primers with alarming regularity. (I'm not aware of any kabooms, though my memory is certainly not authoritative)My understanding is that the x is unequivocally rejected as out of spec, but not 'dangerous'. It's mostly for stuff like bad seals around the case neck and primer pocket.
also, prvi does make m193 to spec afaik, i'll swap you your documentation to the contrary
. (fwiw, i've shot over 6000 rnds of it now without a single ammo-related issue). prvi m855 totally sucks. do not buy that ammo. i've no idea why one is so good and the other so bad.That I won't disagree with at all. It's plinking ammo no doubt, not what I would want to rely upon if the situation called for it. For the longest time it was cheap, easy to obtain, pretty accurate. I've used it in several multi day carbine classes of 1000 rounds plus and never had a problem. That said, I'm not surprised there are failures now and then, that would not be out of line for an ammo like this, sold specifically as training ammo.
What was proposed however is that the ammo regularly blows up rifles, and I still see no offer of proof that this is happening.
The premise of the thread is that the ammo is dangerous to rifles and shooters, that the manufacturer knows it, and continues to sell it anyway.
As for what the "X" means, the manufacturer tells us that it is "manufactured to external visual military standards", meaning it LOOKS like M193, not that is meets the specs for M193. Maybe one of the problems here is that people don't research exactly what it is they are buying.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/XM193.pdf
So don't misunderstand my posts. I am not claiming that XM193 is great ammo, I do say that I have never seen any evidence at all to support the claims that it is over pressure and regularly blows up rifles and is therefore unsafe to shoot.
My point about PP not making M193 is that they are not a US approved maker of the ammo so the only REAL M193 ammo on the planet is that made by ATK and sold to the US Gov.
They make good ammo, and I have no doubt it's to the M193 spec, but it's not "genuine" M193 without the acceptance testing of DOD. None of us can by real M193 thanks to Bill Clinton.
What I am saying is that posts like this:
pop up regularly and not once have I ever seen these posts accompany any real information on WHY it's bad, just that they heard from a guy that knows a guy.
I'm still waiting for a post where a kaboom was confirmed to have been caused by this ammo. It may have happened, but I have yet to see one. The one proposed earlier in the thread turns out to be a kaboom where the shooter doesn't really know for sure what ammo was in his gun when he fired it.
thanks for the clarification. i totally agree with all that
one other comment... sheer speculation on my part, but my prediction is that 5 years from now a new acronym will have entered common useage: DBAFTGOFY, which will accompany most recommendations for firearms and ammo. Don't Buy Anything From The Great Obama Frenzy Years ('08, '09) which I think we'll all look back on and agree quality control left a lot to be desired.
I figure guns and ammo made during '08-'09 will have a slightly better rep than vulcan/hesse, but probably not much better
one other comment... sheer speculation on my part, but my prediction is that 5 years from now a new acronym will have entered common useage: DBAFTGOFY, which will accompany most recommendations for firearms and ammo. Don't Buy Anything From The Great Obama Frenzy Years ('08, '09) which I think we'll all look back on and agree quality control left a lot to be desired.
I figure guns and ammo made during '08-'09 will have a slightly better rep than vulcan/hesse, but probably not much better
Maverick223
Member
Completely out of context...if you look at the quote above that statement and the smiley that follows you should note that the statement was made in jest. As I said before (earlier here) my biggest problem with XM193 is procuring enough of the stuff at a good price.TexasRifleman said:
DMK
Member
I disagree with the fact that it only visually meets M193 spec. The PDF sheet linked to lists it as 3165fps +/-40fps (out of a 20" barrel), and a mean accuracy of 2" at 200yards. It also lists specs for bullet sealant, primer sealant bullet pull and projectile type. Every XM193 that I've loaded into a mag also had a 5.56 LC case and a cannelure on the projectile. Sounds like M193 to me.
There are a lot of rounds that "look" like M193 on the market and don't meet any of these specs. Especially velocity and the cannelure on the projectile.
That said, I rate this stuff as about the same as Winchester Whitebox pistol ammo. It's bulk ammo and you need to inspect every round you load in a mag. I have seen improperly set primers, crushed cases and bullet setback (in both Winchester and XM193). Obviously you need to toss these rounds and don't shoot them. You get what you pay for.
LOL, sorry. I didn't mean yours in this case I meant posts like that show up all the time, and they are completely sincere.
Didn't mean to misquote you, I know you were just kidding. My mistake for not explaining what I meant.
One thing that I believe is different is the M193 spec calls for a knurled crimp cannelure. I'm not sure if XM193 has that, I will go look at some here in a few minutes and see.
All I'm saying is that ATK doesn't claim it to be exactly the same as M193 so there must be a reason for that.
Maverick223
Member
i have learned a few things when it comes to ar's and ammo.
1) stay away from lake city especially in the last 3 years or so
2) i have never heard or seen a kaboom with any .223/5.56 ammo other than with Georigia arms ammo. there handgun ammo is good to go, but i will not use thier .223
1) stay away from lake city especially in the last 3 years or so
2) i have never heard or seen a kaboom with any .223/5.56 ammo other than with Georigia arms ammo. there handgun ammo is good to go, but i will not use thier .223
FYI,
I did have issues during a carbine class with XM193 ammo and primers popping out, I had two lockups during the class due to primers getting stuck in the bolt. However I contacted federal and they took care of me.
I have shot several of their 1000 round boxes of this ammo, this is the only box I ever had and issue with and I assume they had an issue for a very short period of time.
I did have issues during a carbine class with XM193 ammo and primers popping out, I had two lockups during the class due to primers getting stuck in the bolt. However I contacted federal and they took care of me.
I have shot several of their 1000 round boxes of this ammo, this is the only box I ever had and issue with and I assume they had an issue for a very short period of time.
Cougfan2, I`ve read a lot about the "kabooms". I agree with the fact that a non supported barrel -as in the Glock- is a problem. But this has happened in lots of different other models. Another problem to watch out for is the gun being able to fire while not being in full battery. If the bolt or slide is not fully closed and the gun will fire , the bullet is not fully seated in the chamber. Now the bullet is not supported properly. This will cause a "kaboom". I had a "kaboom" with a custom 22 bulleyes gun and a Springfield 45. Both would fire while not in full battery.
I just came across this thread and figured that adding my two cents here would probably be appropriate. I purchased a new AR15 from POF (Model P415) just about a year ago. The ONLY ammunition that I've fired through the rifle has been Federal XM193. The first 400 rounds performed flawless, however it seems the issue's I've experienced with XM193 ammo since then have been consistent and numerous. I begun to experience several FTF's, and upon closer inspection, a large majority of the spent casings had blown out primers. I didn't find any damage to the rifle, however I did end up picking a considerable amount of metal shavings out of the chamber.
I chalked up that experience as a bad batch of ammo, and went on to purchase a new lot of XM193 from a local gun shop (200 rounds). After running approximately 20 rounds of this new batch through the POF, the gun froze up solid. I could not free the BCG and a live round had also been chambered. After inspecting the spent casing of those 20 rounds, damn near half of them had blown primers. I ended up leaving the rifle with my gunsmith to free the bolt, and go through the rifle to inspect for further damage. Luckily no significant damage was found, however numerous pieces of primer and metal debris were found which caused the lockup. I ended up tossing out a majority of the rounds, however I've got about 100 rounds left if anyone would like to give them a shot!!
I will never touch XM193 ammo again, and have since switched to PMC Bronze. I've run roughly 300 rounds of the PMC .223 through the POF, and have not had one issue. While many will continue to swear by XM193, and consider it "top notch ammo", the risks taken most definitely outweigh the few benefits you'll get from this ammo. There are too many other tried and true ammo manufacturers on the market, for one to have to settle for poor quality rounds.
I've used thousands of rounds of XM193 and never had a problem; though I did buy 3,000 rounds of XM193PD and ended up giving away the last 750 rounds or so to a friend who reloads because I got so sick of all the squib rounds. The final straw was when I had a squib and I didn't bother checking the bore because I was sure I saw it impact downrange. The next round then failed to chamber because the bore was obstructed. If it had chambered, I'd have blown up a very nice rifle. The XM193PD got such a bad reputation that I don't think you can even buy ammo marked with that designation anymore.
However, a friend bought 3,000 rounds of XM193PD at the same time from the same place and never had a problem. Irritating eh?
However, a friend bought 3,000 rounds of XM193PD at the same time from the same place and never had a problem. Irritating eh?
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