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Zoli / Navy Arms 58 caliber “ Buffalo Hunter.”

R

RWMC

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Feb 7, 2005
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"It's not Heaven....it's Iowa"
I was looking at one of these yesterday that was made back in 1972. If it had been fired, then the previous owners truly knew how to take care of their muzzleloaders. Beautiful rifle.
I have read many times online where that people are calling the Buffalo Hunter nothing more than just a cut down Zouave rifle. But I have found three separate responses, each of them, claiming that the breech area of the Buffalo Hunter was actually larger and more beefed-up than the breech area of a Zouave rifle. I would be very interested if any of you have some documentation as proof positive to the larger breech diameter of the Buffalo Hunter.
Thanks and have a great rest of your holiday weekend!
 
RWMC said:
I was looking at one of these yesterday that was made back in 1972. If it had been fired, then the previous owners truly knew how to take care of their muzzleloaders. Beautiful rifle.
I have read many times online where that people are calling the Buffalo Hunter nothing more than just a cut down Zouave rifle. But I have found three separate responses, each of them, claiming that the breech area of the Buffalo Hunter was actually larger and more beefed-up than the breech area of a Zouave rifle. I would be very interested if any of you have some documentation as proof positive to the larger breech diameter of the Buffalo Hunter.
Thanks and have a great rest of your holiday weekend!
Click to expand...
Sometimes I think ol’ Val Forgett encouraged those sorts of statements. He probably didn’t put them in the ad copy but he wouldn’t be the first one to deny them either… these were made by a company that also made Zouaves and others for Navy Arms. Seems like it would be simpler to just sporterize the Zouave (as folks have done with military rifles forever) and give it a new name. Whatever it is, I’ll bet it’s a dandy deer rifle.
 
woodnbow said:
Sometimes I think ol’ Val Forgett encouraged those sorts of statements. He probably didn’t put them in the ad copy but he wouldn’t be the first one to deny them either… these were made by a company that also made Zouaves and others for Navy Arms. Seems like it would be simpler to just sporterize the Zouave (as folks have done with military rifles forever) and give it a new name. Whatever it is, I’ll bet it’s a dandy deer rifle.
Click to expand...
I guess I am confused on what type of statement Mr. Forgett made? Just asking.
 
RWMC said:
I guess I am confused on what type of statement Mr. Forgett made? Just asking.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure he meant the statement about the heavier breech.

woodnbow said:
Sometimes I think ol’ Val Forgett encouraged those sorts of statements. He probably didn’t put them in the ad copy but he wouldn’t be the first one to deny them either… these were made by a company that also made Zouaves and others for Navy Arms. Seems like it would be simpler to just sporterize the Zouave (as folks have done with military rifles forever) and give it a new name. Whatever it is, I’ll bet it’s a dandy deer rifle.
Click to expand...

Antonio Zoli made the ones in the 60's and 70's and then in the 90's somebody else started making them and they're not as good.
 
Zoli made the best ones. Many others followed suit, some even soldering the bolster on where the nipple mounts. NSSA has a listing of the ones they won’t approve for safety reasons. Some made in Japan, actually had pipe threads holding the barrel and breech together.
Numrich made a NSSAapproved replacement barrel. I used one to set a couple musket records in the early 70s.
 
I remember the Buffalo Hunter name from an early 1970's Navy Arms catalog. Given that a heavy charge of black powder will blow the skirts of a Minie ball, it does not make sense to believe that the barrels were thicker, so more powder could be poured in. If you want to hit anything, you have to take into account the limitations of pure lead Minie balls.

I am 100% certain that Navy Arms was looking for a name, one that had not been trade marked already, that would create a romantic story in the head of a potential buyer. Such as all the Pirate characters I saw on products, just after the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. Have to remember, Cowboy movies and TV shows hit their peak in the late 1960's. So there were all these products with a tie in to a mythical old West.

No doubt anything that went bang was pointed in the direction of Buffalo. However, if elephants had been roaming the western plains, Navy Arms would have named their short musket : Elephant Hunter. If dinosaurs: Dinosaur Hunter. And for today: Zombie Hunter.
 
I have two Miroku "Zouves", and they both have heavy barrels and breech. Italian barrels will fit in my stocks, although the cones will not line up with the hammer nose. So there's no difference between the width of the breech. One was my first muzzle loader, I was even dumber than I was young, and often fired it with 120 grains of pixie dust (3fg no less) and a 570 grain slug. The recoil was "substantial". I kind of doubt that the breech was held on with "pipe threads". ?

I don't know of more than one Japanese company making those, but I have no knowledge about that. They do both have lumpy bores though. ! And both are sub-1000 serial number, within about ten of each other. !
 
Val Forgett and a couple of others, maybe George Nonte, took these guns to Africa and killed elephant and other game. I have the Navy Arms catalog with the story and will share details when I find it.
 

Val Forgett in Africa

I read an article when I was a kid about his hunt, and shot some insane loads in my muzzleloaders afterwards. I notice Navy Arms has brought back one of the guns that Val used. NAVY ARMS "BUFFALO HUNTER" RETURNS The most famous single shot muzzle loading rifle Navy Arms has ever built, the...
www.muzzleloadingforum.com www.muzzleloadingforum.com

Kevin
 
hawg said:
If they're the same caliber how can one be heavier than the other and still fit the same stock?
Click to expand...
Not sure. Didn't mean the Italian barrel was heavier than the Miroku's, or visa-versa, but that there is lots of meat on both of them. I got an Italian barrel from Dixie, (a million years ago) but as I remember the cone sat further forward from the nose of the hammer. No way I could fix that. No way a Cave Man could do it.
 
I found the article, which i referenced above, again today in an old Navy Arms catalog. Val Forgett and George Nonte (I knew him) went to Africa with several Navy Arms rifles, a Hawken 58 and the cut down Zouave they called the buffalo hunter. The designed a 610 grain wad cutter minie to use, with a heavy skirt that shouldn't blow out. Hawken charge wound up being 180 grains of black and buffalo hunter used 125. They killed buffalo, hippo, and elephant. 18" of penetration on the hippo which I thought was not nearly enough. As they were writing it I give them a grain of salt for their description of effectiveness. They said their p.h. was impressed with the black powder guns effectiveness. George was a genius on cartridge conversions but often demonstrated less than great results with the b.p. guns. I remember one article where he described needing two cylinders full in a 44 Dragon to kill a hog. I guess maybe his honesty made him look bad now that I consider it. Some writers would have "made" it alone shot kill.
Anyway, it was fun to reread that article from the early 70s. And to see the catalog prices.
 
180 grains? That would hurt the shoulder (but I'm a small frame person)
 
4v50 Gary said:
180 grains? That would hurt the shoulder (but I'm a small frame person)
Click to expand...
Indeed it would, I've fired 120 grains under a 580 grain min-yay, in my Miroku "Zouave", and that was the limit of my recoil tolerance. Visibly bruised my shoulder a bit. (not just one shot)

For some reason, 140 grains under a 500+ grain ball in my Brown Bess is not excessive. ? However, if I "take a knee" and shoot it, it will rock me off balance. But again, not painful.
 
Wow Ugly, you really like flinging bowling balls at stuff! Makes me want to weigh the balls for my Ferg just to see what I'm chucking out there.
 
Marketting gimmick of the early 70s. When every one wanted to feel like a plains mountain man.

At that time most repro makers didn't know much about the actual rifles they were making copies of, hence the reason the Hawken was made out to be the "every mans gun of the 19th century".
 
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