Why is the FBI's choice of gun...

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Given so much attention? It very common to read in a handgun article that the FBI picked this or that caliper. Who cares? When was the last time you heard of the FBI involved in a shootout? Ma Barkers gang?
All I ever read about the FBI is breaking into computers and wire tapping.
 
He's referring to the Miami shootout that began, if i recall correctly, with a bank robbery.

Anyway, I think a lot of people pay attention to the FBI for two reasons.

First, there's some who will assume that since the FBI chose this or that, it must be the best. Same reason everyone had to have a S&W Model 29 after watching Dirty Harry or bought a M9 after the military switched over.

Secondly, some figure the FBI has done comprehensive testing and base their choices on that data. However, the FBI tests are geared toward a law enforcement use, not CCW. There is much overlap, but they are not interchangeable uses.
 
I can not think of anyone ever saying that the FBI was the ultimate fighting gun authority. In the 'old days' before the Miami shootout they were mostly thought of as accountants with snubby .38 specials. They did throw a lot of development and study into a new gun when they decided the .38 was not working.

They invented the 10mm and had a pistol built to shoot it. After arming their agents with 10mm they found they goofed, the agents could not hold the big gun or handle the recoil. Back to the drawing board and now we have .40 S&W. A very popular cartridge IF you need a compromise between 9mm and 45acp. I have no idea what the FBI currently issues.

Now in recent times the FBI has adapted first rate training which it shares with LE and has the resources to do the testing that police agencies around the country do not.

Whatever gun and cartridge you pick to carry is a compromise of what is available. Use your research and values to pick what you think will work for you. That's what most of us do.
 
^^ This, their choices are based on science, not emotion or nostalgia.
 
Take all this with a giant lump of salt but IIRC they currently issue Glock 23 but are going to transition to a 9mm of some variety.

FWIW I own a Sig P229 in 357Sig because that's what the Secret Service uses. I figure if it's good enough for the people protecting the President then it's good enough for me. I also own a S&W 10mm because the Kentucky State Police carried them for years, long after the FBI gave them up.

OK, that's a lie. I own a S&W 10mm just because they are awesome! The KSP connection is just a bonus.
 
The reason, there isn't all that much reliable testing of handgun effectiveness floating around. The armies find handguns to be basically backup for over a century now (last time they used a handgun in a serious capacity, it was in the days of the old Colt SAA and they tested what worked using wooden planks and direct observation), don't even practice all that much with them (at least our army doesn't - mostly they practice with rifles, naturally), don't really try to optimize performance and are relegated to shooting ball, so no help from that side.

People go with FBI testing because, while not perfect, it's the best thing in terms of indepth studies out there. The other people which are worth listening would be coroners who get a lot of "traffic" and can directly observe the results on targets which are not gellatin and who can offer some enlightening comments as a result.

In my opinion, anything which has stood the test of time is likely to work for you too, but some people want to "optimize", sometimes with good (and sometimes, not) results. Both the 9mm and the .45 have a proven track record and over 100 years of active military service, and have served various people during various times well, one being "fast and light" and the other "heavy and slow", and both working admirably well. Imo, you couldn't go far wrong with either, or anything "in between".
 
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I listen to them because their research budget is bigger than mine. Who would you rather listen to? The guy shooting water jugs in his backyard? Sure he might be authority if Dasani and the Deer Park boys are hassling you, but when it comes to humans adversaries, I doubt there are many organizations that have put more time and money into researching the terminal effects of handguns and modern hollowpoints than the FBI. They also have access to tons of information from all of the police departments throughout the country and can draw generalizations and conclusions from that data.
 
I was working on the street the day that infamous 1986 shootout occurred (but fortunately for me I was far to the north -Dade county is a BIG place). The review of that incident showed many failures - not just in weapons tactics... Afterwards that the agency really pulled up its socks and the contacts I had with them in a few tactical situations were very positive. Simply put, as sharp as the FBI can be -actual face to face stuff wasn't their strong suit at all... Most ordinary street cops would have handled that terminal confrontation one heck of a lot differently that day.

That incident (and a few others locally) was one of the drivers for a serious upgrading of officer safety and street survival teaching that my small department (100 man outfit) was heavily involved in both through the Academy and internally. The trainers involved were our seasoned officers, mostly and I was very happy to be associated with them. To this day, although I've been retired from police work twenty years now, I still believe your actual tactics in any serious confrontation are far more important than the actual weapons you're equipped with.....

Lastly.... no matter how good or skilled any individual or outfit is in handling violent incidents -you have to keep up those skills or they'll disappear on you (whether we're talking about a single citizen or an entire agency -nothing is forever....
 
Given so much attention? It very common to read in a handgun article that the FBI picked this or that caliper. Who cares? When was the last time you heard of the FBI involved in a shootout? Ma Barkers gang?
All I ever read about the FBI is breaking into computers and wire tapping.


I look at things along the same line of thought. Seems that all the FBI expertise is centered around an incident that occurred 30 years ago, before many gun owners were ever born, with weapons that nobody carries today. While I'm sure that any federal agency has a bloated budget to employ bean counters to analyze statistics compiled by other agencies who were actually involved in firefight incidents, I think I'd rather look for insight from the Chicago or NYPD, or Sheriff or Border Patrol or other agencies that actually employ their tactics on a regular basis. I've never considered federal agencies superior in any way, except in the political sense. Just look at the police agencies under US Justice Dept. oversight. Television has promoted the false stereotype where the bumbling morons in local law enforcement step aside while the FBI experts come in and solve the real crimes that end in a tactical shootout.
 
The fBI research and recommendations are intended for their agents and for their law enforcement partners.

They are the ones who do the analysis for the NYPD and for the sheriff in Mayberry.
 
Guns that stand the test of time are often there due to a lack of any concerns over their poor performance. Once used in a critical situation or with enough incidents, then things show themselves to be what they really are, and new decisions often come out from it.

The 1911 stayed in the racks for nearly 70 years simply because the Army didn't need anything better to do what a sidearm does best in that hierarchal organization - assign status to it's wearer in their duties. Not that it's a bad gun, but a single stack single action as a battle weapon fell behind the power curve when Browning started working on the Hi Power. Double stack double actions are now the standard in military use and it's been transferred to police duty, too.

The .38 revolver was another gun left in the holster for decades of use - replaced by the Glock as being far superior. In either case, would it be better to return to them for official duty?

In some cases yes, largely, no. The passage of time is really needed to get humans to catch up on their thinking to adopt new standards of performance. Keeping the same old guns for long periods of time into second and third generations just means nobody has decided to raise the bar. It's not a justification in and of itself that the old guns were superior. It's an testimony nobody wanted anything better.

We used rotary dial land line telephones for decades, too. Stood the test of time, or just all we bothered to put up with? I seem to see cell phones going thru generations of improvement in the last twenty years, with broadcast protocols changing twice.

Sometimes what we put up with is due to our fair weather standards. We keep it around because we don't push the product to the edge or force it into life threatening use. Like, wearing cotton denim blue jeans in freezing rain five miles from your spike camp in the Rockies. Good ol blue jeans have stood the test of time, too, but maybe you could make a better decision.

The FBI recently decided to go 9mm for their next fleet of issue weapons, and it's due to better ammo and the concept the older guns were becoming worn in service and problematic. Maybe we can pick up some of their discards for our use, like the many S&W 5903's that sold off a few years back. But those old guns aren't necessarily all that - government institutions make committee decisions about their priorities and balance the advantages and disadvantages to come out with their choice. Like, the Army with the quad rail handguard on the M4. Ok for them, not the best idea for the civilian shooter on the range or hunting. In fact, more bad than good considering the wide variety of better handguards around.

Don't put too much credence in someone's "official" recommendation - there is a lot of lobbying and partisanship in the hallways where those decisions are made, same as another agency being told to make M855 illegal. You have to consider the source and it's motivations.
 
The guy shooting water jugs in his backyard is a joke. OTOH there are plenty of people on YouTube that do very detailed calibrated gel block videos.
with weapons that nobody carries today
The gun fight was stopped with a pure act of bravery by Special Agent Edmundo Mireles, Jr. with a .357 magnum wheel gun.

Never ever read anything on Wikipedia and take it as fact.
Massad Ayoob wrote a very detailed article about the incident and there are books and FBI reports that go into every detail on something that went down in 5 minutes 30 years ago. The Wikipedia page was probably written by some British guy from his apartment in London.
 
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2 reasons- they put a lot of effort into testing both guns and ammunition, and because they are considered the "authority" among LE when it comes to all things firearms. That being said, they do seem to change their minds quite often.
 
Given so much attention? It very common to read in a handgun article that the FBI picked this or that caliper. Who cares? When was the last time you heard of the FBI involved in a shootout? Ma Barkers gang?
All I ever read about the FBI is breaking into computers and wire tapping.
I'll tell you why I place some stock in what they have to say. Prior to retirement my entire engineering background had evolved into testing things. Testing things and doing it correctly requires considerable equipment and in most cases expensive equipment. I would love to sit here and run, for example, chamber pressure test but to really setup and do it right takes some pretty expensive stuff.

Has anyone ever seen some of the FBI's labs and equipment? Tens of Millions of dollars are poured into their labs and test facilities, sometimes Millions on a single test bench setup. I have no problem popping a hundred or even a few hundred to get some test results but come up a little short when tens of thousands are needed. Not only are their labs outfitted with some of the finest, state of the art, test, measurement and diagnostic equipment available but they can afford to staff with some of the best and brightest with their recruiting.

So all things considered I do place some stock in what they have to say. Well. I listen to what they have to say. I may not always agree with their practices and procedures but they are certainly worth consideration. To my thinking and only my thinking I place more value on their findings and white papers than many of the people writing for and being published in gun rags.

Just My Take....
Ron
 
eldon519 said:
I listen to them because their research budget is bigger than mine.
^^^This right here.

I listen to them because they've put way more time, energy and money into research on the issue of handgun performance and ballistics than I will be able to in my lifetime. Is the FBI the "ultimate fighting gun authority?" I don't know, but I don't know of any agency better equipped and more interested in determining which handguns & cartridges perform best, in light of their intended uses and users.

By that last part, I mean things like finding a handgun that a wide range of shooters, or shooting through barriers. Such a handgun may or may not fit my hands particularly well, and I may never need to shoot through a barrier, but I simply have to take those things into account, in addition to the FBI tests. The FBI tests make a good starting point, not an end-all-be-all.
 
I'll tell you why I place some stock in what they have to say. Prior to retirement my entire engineering background had evolved into testing things. Testing things and doing it correctly requires considerable equipment and in most cases expensive equipment. I would love to sit here and run, for example, chamber pressure test but to really setup and do it right takes some pretty expensive stuff.

Has anyone ever seen some of the FBI's labs and equipment? Tens of Millions of dollars are poured into their labs and test facilities, sometimes Millions on a single test bench setup. I have no problem popping a hundred or even a few hundred to get some test results but come up a little short when tens of thousands are needed. Not only are their labs outfitted with some of the finest, state of the art, test, measurement and diagnostic equipment available but they can afford to staff with some of the best and brightest with their recruiting.

So all things considered I do place some stock in what they have to say. Well. I listen to what they have to say. I may not always agree with their practices and procedures but they are certainly worth consideration. To my thinking and only my thinking I place more value on their findings and white papers than many of the people writing for and being published in gun rags.

Just My Take....
Ron
If they are spending 10's of millions of dollars splitting hairs between a 9 or 10MM, We need to examine their budget. They are a investigative agency, not first strike commandos.
 
The last shoot out I heard of took place a few miles from where I used to live in
New Jersey. Two criminals were robbing a bank. The FBI showed up and there was
another FBI man there that wasn't attached to the others. They thought he was a
bank robber and shot and killed him with an AR15 or equivalent. The two crooks
were caught shortly afterwards because they couldn't run in the mud or something like that.
My nephew, a N.J. detective in that twp. showed up very shortly after the FBI man was
killed.
 
When was the last time you heard of the FBI involved in a shootout? Ma Barkers gang?
All I ever read about the FBI is breaking into computers and wire tapping.

Then you must not have been listening to the news. The situation involving rancher Bundy and the BLM in Nevada and the recent Oregon "militia" standoff, though there were local Sherriffs in attendance also involved the FBI. Their agents were armed as well. Ruby Ridge? FBI, USMS, BATFE. Waco? FBI and BATFE.

(One will hear alleged reasons for these conflicts from both liberal and conservative perspectives; the truth of these matters, as always, lies somewhere in between)
 
Posted by jim in Anchorage:
If they are spending 10's of millions of dollars splitting hairs between a 9 or 10MM, We need to examine their budget.
First, why would you conclude from a comment about FBI labs and equipment that they are spending 10's of millions on th subject at hand? Second, do you have a basis for believing that the difference in defectiveness between the 9MM and the .40 falls into the category of "splitting hairs"?.

They are a investigative agency, not first strike commandos.
Did you comprehend Post #15 at all?
 
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