WestKentucky
Member
Same guns as what are iconic carbines today. Winny 94s, Marlins, m1 carbines, and a bunch of bolt action milsurp rifles. A lot of collectible rifles got the "bubba treatment" at that time to turn a rifle into a carbine.
What was the ubiquitous carbine before the AR15?
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DustyGmt
Member
Sorry this veers off the OP's question but why do people refer to mil surp rifles that are sporterized as "bubbafied" or "bubba'd"?
It has kind of a "rednecky" or otherwise derogatory connotation, no?
It has kind of a "rednecky" or otherwise derogatory connotation, no?
Sistema1927
Member
Because Bubba should never be allowed to be in a room alone with guns and tools. "Put down the Dremel tool and nobody will get hurt."
WestKentucky
Member
Yep. And once they get screwed up to a point of being dangerous or lose all of their value nobody will buy them anymore and/or they gain sentimental value for the family because "bubba" did the work, so they stay with the family and it's always "bubbas gun"
Jim Watson
Member
Manly men had Tanker Garand carbines.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
There have been many many thousands of mil surplus rifles altered to make them closer to what the average mid-20th-century guy thought a good hunting gun should look like. You know, like a Winchester model 70 more or less.
Those guys bought what was to them a cheap gun and made it "better" by cutting stuff off and drilling holes in it to mount different sights or scopes.
Some of those guys were artists. You don't see the term "Bubba" thrown around much when the result was a graceful and elegant sporting arm such as the famous gunsmiths of the day turned out. But there were probably five thousand that got hacksawed and boogered up for every one that history looks upon kindly.
Compound that with a gun buying culture that has changed from wanting a shop-altered rifle to hunt with (instead of any of the myriad inexpensive hunting rifles for sale today) to really wishing that there were still crates full of cheap original m1903s and k98s and m1917s and Enfields and all those other greasy war relics.
It is easy to cast a lot of pained hindsight and a bit of derision on the old timers who were short sighted, selfish, dumb... or just pragmatic enough to take a saw and file to an historic war relic just to make a cheap Bambi buster.
Macchina
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I can't be the only one who sees the lever action as still a superior civilian rifle to the AR, am I? I'm in my early 30's and use my 44 Mag Marlin 1894 for everything I see people using AR's for and do it with a 6-pound rifle that is handier, quieter, more streamlined, and quicker on target than any AR I've shot, of which I have shot many.
The AR is a far superior war weapon, but for hunting, plinking, and honestly home defense I'll take a 10-shot lever action carbine any day of the week!
The AR is a far superior war weapon, but for hunting, plinking, and honestly home defense I'll take a 10-shot lever action carbine any day of the week!
Driftwood Johnson
Member
$2 an hour????
Hell, when I got my first job minimum wage was $1 an hour.
This kind of post always irks me.
Exactly when are we talking about? And please don't say Back in the Day, that phrase is completely meaningless.
The Winchester Model 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine at the bottom of this photo left the factory in 1916. 44-40 of course. That is a classic carbine. (The rifle version at the top of the photo is a little bit earlier, from 1894)
This 30WCF Model 1894 is a Johnnie Come Lately. It left the factory sometime between 1943 and 1948. Have not been able to date it exactly yet.
What would I grab in a hurry if I needed it? A lever gun. I am more familiar with lever guns than any other kind of repeater. I only have one of those Black Guns, that's enough for me.
Hell, when I got my first job minimum wage was $1 an hour.
This kind of post always irks me.
Exactly when are we talking about? And please don't say Back in the Day, that phrase is completely meaningless.
The Winchester Model 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine at the bottom of this photo left the factory in 1916. 44-40 of course. That is a classic carbine. (The rifle version at the top of the photo is a little bit earlier, from 1894)
This 30WCF Model 1894 is a Johnnie Come Lately. It left the factory sometime between 1943 and 1948. Have not been able to date it exactly yet.
What would I grab in a hurry if I needed it? A lever gun. I am more familiar with lever guns than any other kind of repeater. I only have one of those Black Guns, that's enough for me.
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DMK
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It's nice to see a younger guy with good taste for the classics.
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DMK
Member
Those are beautiful rifles Driftwood Johnson. I especially like that Saddle Ring Winchester.
$2 an hour????
Hell, when I got my first job minimum wage was $1 an hour.
This kind of post always irks me.
Exactly when are we talking about? And please don't say Back in the Day, that phrase is completely meaningless.
The Winchester Model 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine at the bottom of this photo left the factory in 1916. 44-40 of course. That is a classic carbine. (The rifle version at the top of the photo is a little bit earlier, from 1894)
This 30WCF Model 1894 is a Johnnie Come Lately. It left the factory sometime between 1943 and 1948. Have not been able to date it exactly yet.
What would I grab in a hurry if I needed it? A lever gun. I am more familiar with lever guns than any other kind of repeater. I only have one of those Black Guns, that's enough for me.
Varminterror
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I've read this thread a few times since it was posted, and each time, it reads completely differently than I feel most of the other posters have responded... I don't read it as "what was the AR before the AR?" I read it as "what was the bread and butter firearm before the AR?"
The Garand, Thompson, Mini14, etc etc weren't anything I'd consider ubiquitous. Sure, they were combat firearms before the AR came in to take over the combat rifle environment, but none of them enjoyed anywhere near the popularity the AR has - a long ways from "ubiquitous."
A rack of them at every gun shop, see one at the range on every trip... This would have been a bolt action rifle in 30-06, 308win, or 270win, maybe a levergun in .30-30. I DO believe the levergun was in this role in the early decades of the 1900's, but if I'm honest, in the 80's and 90's, the levergun had taken a back seat to the bolt gun. So if the question is "what was ubiquitous before the AR?" the answer is the bolt action hunting rifle, and the subsequent question, " what was ubiquitous before the bolt action hunting rifle?" is answered by the levergun.
Likely one in ready mode in a large percentage of gun owners homes... This would have most likely been a shotgun. Not the tacticool short barrels we talk about today, but rather the average hunting shotgun which the owner already had on hand.
I believe this trend is largely caused by the trend in driving purpose for firearm ownership. A couple generations ago, most folks owned firearms for hunting. Today, most folks own firearms for the sake of owning firearms - as such, the type of firearms changed over those years.
loose noose
Member
I would definitely go with the M-1 Carbine, don't recall seeing any Thompson sub machine guns as a kid growing up in N/E Wisconsin, as far as semi automatic weapons go.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
What's interesting is (as I noted earlier "in my part of the world") that the gun models I saw the most frequently in gun racks, in homes, and for hunting back in my time when hunting leases were affordable for the common man, that gun was a lever gun usually in .30-30 and sometimes in .45-70. The decades I'm referring to are the '70s, '80s, and '90s as I was a child of the '60s. The few hunting bolt guns I saw were owned by people with more discretionary income as a commercial bolt gun with nice glass on it was in a class by itself compared to the work horse lever guns I was around.
Even my grandpa's commercially sporterized Argentine Mauser (with optic) was something to hold in awe compared to a common lever gun.
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DMK
Member
You make some good points Varminterror. I think some of it may also be based on geography. Out in wide open spaces such as Montana or Wyoming a 30-06 or .270 may be ubiquitous, where in a heavily forested area of the Appalachians perhaps the 30-30 would be more common.
Maybe we didn't see the racks of lever guns back in the day, because there wasn't a lot of variety. You had just a few variations on the theme in a handful of calibers. AR-15s come from more manufacturers, in dozens of variations, as well as many calibers.
There is also a lot more fear and uncertainty today. My parents and grandparents never even considered a need for daily carry self defense years ago. Now there is a fear of domestic crime, domestic and international terrorism, public unrest during time of emergency, public unrest due to political decisions, etc, etc.
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DMK
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chicharrones
needs more ammo
That's a good point. I'm thinking it also may be due to our background, job, or people we hung out with. For instance, I was never in the military and am not a LEO. I'm sure that slants my experiences to the lever gun, while military or LEO people may have had more experience with the M1 Carbine.
I do remember the weekly newspaper ads in the sports section for Woolworths back in the late '80s and early '90s. Woolworths were advertising M1 Carbines for $199.00 and the M1 Garands for $299.00 at the time. I still couldn't afford to purchase either one. Thank goodness the SKS' were so much cheaper.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I think the AR has become ubiquitous because military veterans who take up civilian shooting (recreational or self-defense) want to keep their training on the AR rather than re-train on a different system.
My list of my guns (first kept in a notebook, them moved to a computer) is sort of a Wayback Machine:
Centerfire carbines (20" barrel or less) that I have owned before, as, and after the AR became ubiquitous
(which I peg at the sunset of the AWB 2004).
1969 .30-30 Winchester 94
1970 .30-30 Marlin 336C
1971 .30 Carbine Marlin 62 Levermatic
1979 .35 Rem Marlin 336C
1990 .30 Carbine US M1
1991 6.5 Carcano '91/M38
1992 7.62x51R ChiCom Type 1953
1999 .30-30 Marlin 336W
2001 .45 AutoOrdnance TM1 carbine
2004 .357 Rossi Puma M92
2005 .30-30 Winchester 94AE
2006 7.62x39 Yugo M70AB2
My early interest was hunting and plinking. Lately I have been participating in military matches at a gun club affiliated with the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
Off the OP but: " A lot of collectible rifles got the "bubba treatment" at that time to turn a rifle into a carbine."
In the 1960s, "collectible" military rifles had to be NRA Used Gun condition "Very Good" or better with "Excellent", "As New", "Perfect" condition preferred by collectors plus some provenance or history attached. ( I suspect the freeze on military surplus imports 1968-1986 changed a few minds later.) I had no qualms about semi-sporterizing an anonymous military surplus rifle in Good or Fair condition to make a budget hunting rifle. Collectors turned their noses up at rifles in less than V.G. condition. A few years ago tho' I dug up a complete military stock set for my Type 53: the times they do change.
My list of my guns (first kept in a notebook, them moved to a computer) is sort of a Wayback Machine:
Centerfire carbines (20" barrel or less) that I have owned before, as, and after the AR became ubiquitous
(which I peg at the sunset of the AWB 2004).
1969 .30-30 Winchester 94
1970 .30-30 Marlin 336C
1971 .30 Carbine Marlin 62 Levermatic
1979 .35 Rem Marlin 336C
1990 .30 Carbine US M1
1991 6.5 Carcano '91/M38
1992 7.62x51R ChiCom Type 1953
1999 .30-30 Marlin 336W
2001 .45 AutoOrdnance TM1 carbine
2004 .357 Rossi Puma M92
2005 .30-30 Winchester 94AE
2006 7.62x39 Yugo M70AB2
My early interest was hunting and plinking. Lately I have been participating in military matches at a gun club affiliated with the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
Off the OP but: " A lot of collectible rifles got the "bubba treatment" at that time to turn a rifle into a carbine."
In the 1960s, "collectible" military rifles had to be NRA Used Gun condition "Very Good" or better with "Excellent", "As New", "Perfect" condition preferred by collectors plus some provenance or history attached. ( I suspect the freeze on military surplus imports 1968-1986 changed a few minds later.) I had no qualms about semi-sporterizing an anonymous military surplus rifle in Good or Fair condition to make a budget hunting rifle. Collectors turned their noses up at rifles in less than V.G. condition. A few years ago tho' I dug up a complete military stock set for my Type 53: the times they do change.
Speedo66
Member
I remember when the DCM (Director of Civilian Marksmanship), predecessor to the CMP, used to advertise in the NRA's Rifleman magazine that they would sell you a surplus M-1 directly to your door for $21.50 in a nice wooden box, or a Carbine for $15. Cheap price also for a 1911. Millions took advantage of those price
If you think back a ways, what were the police carrying in their cars in addition to a shotgun? Not where I lived in NYC, but I've seen many articles where the cops carried a lever action. In NYC, I'd see M-1 Carbines used. There was a famous detective in NYC, Jim Cirillo, who was in the "Stakeout Unit". He'd sit in wait for an armed robbery in stores that had been robbed many times. He used an M-1 Carbine with murderous effect, to the point where they disbanded the program because they killed too many robbers. Doesn't make sense to me either. They wrote a book about him, here: http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Jim_Cirillos_Tales_of_the_Stakeout_Squad/Handguns
If you think back a ways, what were the police carrying in their cars in addition to a shotgun? Not where I lived in NYC, but I've seen many articles where the cops carried a lever action. In NYC, I'd see M-1 Carbines used. There was a famous detective in NYC, Jim Cirillo, who was in the "Stakeout Unit". He'd sit in wait for an armed robbery in stores that had been robbed many times. He used an M-1 Carbine with murderous effect, to the point where they disbanded the program because they killed too many robbers. Doesn't make sense to me either. They wrote a book about him, here: http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Jim_Cirillos_Tales_of_the_Stakeout_Squad/Handguns
AlexanderA
Member
I first became aware of guns when I was growing up in the 1950's and early 60's. (This was in Missouri, Kansas, and Texas.) The circumstances then were not comparable to what we have today. Nobody was preoccupied with self-defense. Guns were mostly kept for hunting, along with a fair number of souvenirs from WW2. (A classmate of mine's Dad, in Lawrence, Kansas, used to plink with a Luger back behind their house.)
The early 60's saw a flood of military surplus rifles imported from overseas.They were so cheap that a lot of people bought them, that had had no interest in guns before. At the same time, the DCM began selling M1 carbines, Springfields, and Enfields at equally low prices. People joined the NRA for the primary purpose of qualifying to buy the DCM offerings. Many of these surplus rifles were made into "poor man's hunting rifles" by sporterizing them. The NRA even issued pamphlets showing exactly how to do this!
"I've heard that before the 1934 NFA, the Thompson sub-machine gun was popular in the civilian market."
The Thompson was never popular in the civilian market. (Too expensive, and of limited use.) Out of the original 15,000 made (in 1921), most remained unsold until the beginning of WW2.
In the 1950's, fully-automatic weapons could be purchased as DEWATS, through the mail, with no formalities. Even so, there wasn't that much interest in them. I think that a lot of men had been through the war, and they had had their fill of such weapons.
The early 60's saw a flood of military surplus rifles imported from overseas.They were so cheap that a lot of people bought them, that had had no interest in guns before. At the same time, the DCM began selling M1 carbines, Springfields, and Enfields at equally low prices. People joined the NRA for the primary purpose of qualifying to buy the DCM offerings. Many of these surplus rifles were made into "poor man's hunting rifles" by sporterizing them. The NRA even issued pamphlets showing exactly how to do this!
"I've heard that before the 1934 NFA, the Thompson sub-machine gun was popular in the civilian market."
The Thompson was never popular in the civilian market. (Too expensive, and of limited use.) Out of the original 15,000 made (in 1921), most remained unsold until the beginning of WW2.
In the 1950's, fully-automatic weapons could be purchased as DEWATS, through the mail, with no formalities. Even so, there wasn't that much interest in them. I think that a lot of men had been through the war, and they had had their fill of such weapons.
Mix of 30-30s, quite a few SKS, and M1carbines, only a few Minis or other "high end"....yeah, they cost about double what you could get an sks or any 30-30 for when i was growing up in the 90s on Molokai....I never even saw an Ar till I was in high school.
22250Rem
Member
I'm also gonna say "30-30 Lever gun". Those things have always been so common. But back in the '60's, though, a lot of M-1 Carbines got sold and there was such a demand for them that some civilian versions were even being produced. Like the Universal M-1 Carbine, (made in FLA? IIRC). Plus the Plainfield Machine Co. (out of N J) made their own M-1 Carbines in the '60's (I owned one for a few years in the '90's). But even back then I'd wager that 30-30 lever guns outnumbered the M-1 Carbines by a wide margin.
DustyGmt
Member
I'm genuinely surprised to see so many M1 Carbine posts.... I know at least here in VT the most "ubiquitous" carbine is hands down the lever action 30-30.
I have never seen or heard of a hunter take to the woods with an M1 carbine, I don't even know if there are 5rd mags available that would even permit their use for hunting.
I know the OP didn't limit the scope of criteria to "hunting carbine" but I think before the "tactical age" the average person that needed a carbine rifle needed it primarily to hunt whitetail and kill the occasional fox or coyote and I'm just not all that sure the "M1" was the "go to" carbine to fulfill that role........ Not around these parts anyhow........
I have never seen or heard of a hunter take to the woods with an M1 carbine, I don't even know if there are 5rd mags available that would even permit their use for hunting.
I know the OP didn't limit the scope of criteria to "hunting carbine" but I think before the "tactical age" the average person that needed a carbine rifle needed it primarily to hunt whitetail and kill the occasional fox or coyote and I'm just not all that sure the "M1" was the "go to" carbine to fulfill that role........ Not around these parts anyhow........
illinoisburt
Member
The question really requires a time frame. I can tell you for sure that lever guns were on the out's from everyone's opinions I heard in the 1980s. Those were for dusty old guys -- everyone needed a new Remington or Winchester bolt gun with a 3-9*40 scope for hunting (even though in Illinois we all used pump slug guns). Truly the sks took the scene by storm in the late 80's to early 90's. Without the Chinese import bans it may have become THE carbine. In many respects I think the ban was implemented as protection of us manufacturers as much as so called crime prevention.
Carl N. Brown
Member
^ It does make more sense to use one gun for deer and the same gun for the occassional medium varmint like coyote. .30 Carbine could be used for any game appropriate for the old .32-20 rifle round, pest or vermin in the coyote size. The .30 Carbine has about one-half the muzzle energy of the .30-30 which I consider the baseline for deer.
If you cannot find a 5rd M1 Carbine mag, the 1960s gun magazines carried instructions on making them. In case I used mine for protected small game hunting, I made a 5 round magazine from a 15 rounder (back when mags were cheap). I later found a commercial 5 rounder with a M2 last-shot hold-open follower. The 5rd magazines are handy when sighting the carbine in from the bench or carrying the carbine one handed by its balance point. There was a demand for hunting magazines for the M1 Carbine so some folks were using them for hunting in some areas.
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If you cannot find a 5rd M1 Carbine mag, the 1960s gun magazines carried instructions on making them. In case I used mine for protected small game hunting, I made a 5 round magazine from a 15 rounder (back when mags were cheap). I later found a commercial 5 rounder with a M2 last-shot hold-open follower. The 5rd magazines are handy when sighting the carbine in from the bench or carrying the carbine one handed by its balance point. There was a demand for hunting magazines for the M1 Carbine so some folks were using them for hunting in some areas.
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