Why to people butcher and rape milsurps?
- Thread starter amadeus76
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This is a major factor and the difference to automotive and aeromotive world. Guns are very simple mechanical devices. They're relatively easy to store, are rarely spoiled by even long periods of time as long as they're protected from corrosion and compared to even the most common cars and planes there are much more of them left. Considering the effort of sporterizing one, it's not as common practise as it used to be and I wouldn't be worried about not finding one in the future. They're just no longer sold for peanuts or stuffed en masse in barrels so it's just a matter of market value and what you're willing to spend to get one.
I've loved the brief periods of time when some surplus rifles have been sold for well under $100 but we all must understand that it isn't a permanent state. The index corrected manufacturing costs have been substantially higher than that so in essence you've got more than your money's worth if you've bought one. When a sufficient number of people want one and there's a definite supply, guess what happens to prices. Like I've kicked myself many times I didn't get a pair of Colt Diamondbacks I really wanted a couple of decades ago, just because they were dirt cheap at the time so I thought I'll just get them later.
Nature Boy
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FFL isn't required to repair guns. Only when shipping for transfer of ownership. Sending to factory for warranty work or other repair shop requires no FFL.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
It requires an FFL on the other end.
lysanderxiii
Member
lysanderxiii
Member
Did you read my responses?But you're okay with the "butcher and rape" characterization???
(Granted the sarcasm may have whizzed past you, it happens on the internet....)
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1stmarine
Member
I have been thinking about taking one of the worse mosins and give it a new life and purpose in 45/70. Perhaps 444 Marlin. I have reamers for both.
Something light and handy like this...
Something light and handy like this...
That hasn't been my experience. I've never needed to provide FFL to UPS when shipping out guns to be worked on or refinished. I've been told by custom gunmakers FFL isn't required on their end because ownership isn't being transferred. Apparently UPS knows this too. Those gunsmiths are "in the business" and don't provide it for shipping. Same reason they can ship it directly back to my door, it never transferred ownership therefore I don't need to be FFL holder.
Acera
Member
lysanderxiii
Member
Don't let the BATF know about it, as it is illegal.
Gunsmithing falls under the BATF rules for those persons requiring an FFL, if "in the business".
Perhaps the places I send to have FFL but it isn't required to show at UPS because to transfer of ownership? Dunno but had to verify this last year with one of the gunsmiths and was assured no FFL was needed for UPS.
So you members who have shipped back to manufacturer for warranty work, you had to provide a FFL from Ruger for example? Not been my experience.
So you members who have shipped back to manufacturer for warranty work, you had to provide a FFL from Ruger for example? Not been my experience.
I think there is a conflation of two things. One, people who repair firearms as a way of living do need an FFL either manufacturers or gunsmith. This is the actual CFR 27 CFR 478.11 requirement which is quoting from its authorizing statute 18 US Code 921 (21). The other is that the law and the ATF try to distinguish between a hobbyist and a business.
"Engaged in the business -
(a) Manufacturer of firearms. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(b) omitted
(c) omitted
(d)Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;"
Where the confusion goes is that just like the ATF has refused to further define how many private sales make someone an unlicensed dealer, the CFR promulgated by the ATF is fuzzy about the distinction between manufacturers and gunsmiths (which is why proposals were floated under ITAR to make gunsmiths into manufacturers if they did almost anything other than cleaning, or replacement of stock parts). And it is not clear about the distinction when the line is crossed between occasional repairs and those that need to hold a gunsmithing license. Someone who plated one firearm frame or a rifle bolt for a customer but generally plated automotive trim probably would not be held to be in the business but if they did several per year? It depends on the ATF's discretion and adjudication.
"Engaged in the business -
(a) Manufacturer of firearms. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(b) omitted
(c) omitted
(d)Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;"
Where the confusion goes is that just like the ATF has refused to further define how many private sales make someone an unlicensed dealer, the CFR promulgated by the ATF is fuzzy about the distinction between manufacturers and gunsmiths (which is why proposals were floated under ITAR to make gunsmiths into manufacturers if they did almost anything other than cleaning, or replacement of stock parts). And it is not clear about the distinction when the line is crossed between occasional repairs and those that need to hold a gunsmithing license. Someone who plated one firearm frame or a rifle bolt for a customer but generally plated automotive trim probably would not be held to be in the business but if they did several per year? It depends on the ATF's discretion and adjudication.
Acera
Member
Did the customer wait for this to happen in a single day? If the firearm was dropped off or held overnight it must be entered into the A&D book by a FFL. I think someone doing a few repairs while the customer waits maybe be able to avoid being a FFL, however if they will be doing work without the customer present they need the license, or if the work goes on from one business day to another.
Just because it is happening in the real world does not make it legal.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/doe...received-adjustment-or-repair-acquisition-and
.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Exactly. If you are shipping to or dropping off overnight (or more) the gunsmith is required to have an FFL.Has nothing to do with transfer of ownership. Yes, the gunsmith or manufacturer can ship the firearm directly back to you. A manufacturer can even send a new replacement firearm back to you.
Which has nothing to do with UPS.
This is precisely why I can only receive a blackpowder pistol for fitting holsters, because I do not have an FFL.
Which has nothing to do with UPS.
This is precisely why I can only receive a blackpowder pistol for fitting holsters, because I do not have an FFL.
I engrave several firearms for customers every year, but not enough to say it's my primary business (trophy shop) The understanding I get from the ATF I can do that as long as they're not held overnight. Most I do while the customer waits, but if it's a more complicated job, I have them make an appointment and leave it with me for a couple of hours.
Acera,
O/T This is a topic better for the legal forum but,
Personally, I would always send my firearms via courier services to another FFL or have my FFL ship and transfer it for any sort of repair.
What you are addressing above starts getting into what constitutes a transfer between individuals and exactly what is a firearm which is another set of relatively vague rules beyond the scope of what is being discussed here. Not saying sending a firearm through a courier service to a non FFL is lawful, I am simply quoting the black letter of the law (btw, be careful about not actually reading the statutes and regulations and relying on FAQ answers--the agency is not bound and cannot be bound by law to what an individual ATF agent tells you nor what is put on the public website--you can raise the issue in defense but many requirements under law do not have mens rea requirements.)
Note that you are quoting guidance from the ATF on gunsmiths (which are licensees by definition) while the question above was who needed a license BY LAW and the related regulation. Gunsmiths are bound by ATF regulations because by definition they are in the business while the other situation is what constitutes change of ownership under the meaning of the law. Leaving aside state law, you get into a fuzzy area when temporarily transferring a firearm to another (which is why the WA law is problematic)--federal law prohibits you from knowingly giving it to a forbidden person -technically even for a second but has never been INTERPRETED as far as I am aware for example for a guide to hand an out of stater hunting in Alaska a loaner firearm despite "technically being a transfer to someone out of state". Now, someone sending a firearm across state lines to someone else even for repair etc. outside of the legal exceptions such as those for FFL holders could probably be charged with illegally transferring firearms in interstate commerce despite whether or not the receiving person is "regularly in the business of". In all cases, consult a knowledgeable lawyer BEFORE you do anything that might end up with you being in legal trouble with the feds.
Making matters more complicated, then, there is what the ATF does as guidance, prosecutorial discretion, and how a court would interpret the laws and regulations (and how much deference a court would give under the Chevron doctrine to agency guidance through policies and private letters etc).
The question above was what was meant by "in the business of".
O/T This is a topic better for the legal forum but,
Personally, I would always send my firearms via courier services to another FFL or have my FFL ship and transfer it for any sort of repair.
What you are addressing above starts getting into what constitutes a transfer between individuals and exactly what is a firearm which is another set of relatively vague rules beyond the scope of what is being discussed here. Not saying sending a firearm through a courier service to a non FFL is lawful, I am simply quoting the black letter of the law (btw, be careful about not actually reading the statutes and regulations and relying on FAQ answers--the agency is not bound and cannot be bound by law to what an individual ATF agent tells you nor what is put on the public website--you can raise the issue in defense but many requirements under law do not have mens rea requirements.)
Note that you are quoting guidance from the ATF on gunsmiths (which are licensees by definition) while the question above was who needed a license BY LAW and the related regulation. Gunsmiths are bound by ATF regulations because by definition they are in the business while the other situation is what constitutes change of ownership under the meaning of the law. Leaving aside state law, you get into a fuzzy area when temporarily transferring a firearm to another (which is why the WA law is problematic)--federal law prohibits you from knowingly giving it to a forbidden person -technically even for a second but has never been INTERPRETED as far as I am aware for example for a guide to hand an out of stater hunting in Alaska a loaner firearm despite "technically being a transfer to someone out of state". Now, someone sending a firearm across state lines to someone else even for repair etc. outside of the legal exceptions such as those for FFL holders could probably be charged with illegally transferring firearms in interstate commerce despite whether or not the receiving person is "regularly in the business of". In all cases, consult a knowledgeable lawyer BEFORE you do anything that might end up with you being in legal trouble with the feds.
Making matters more complicated, then, there is what the ATF does as guidance, prosecutorial discretion, and how a court would interpret the laws and regulations (and how much deference a court would give under the Chevron doctrine to agency guidance through policies and private letters etc).
The question above was what was meant by "in the business of".
Acera
Member
Yes, I know you engrave. That is why you wanted me to send my lower to the FFL that is next door to your shop when we were talking about some work, right?
BoomBoom don't know what you rambling on about. I have not addressed any carrier issues, forbidden persons, hunting guides,etc. You mention that a gunsmith must be a FFL by 'definition', the point I am making is you should not ship a firearm to someone for plating, painting, trigger work, etc. that does not have a license. You can take it to someone that is a hobbyist to do some work on it, but you can't leave it with him unless they have a FFL. But is seems some do.
lysanderxiii
Member
Seems pretty clear to me.
If you make a living, or a reasonable portion of your living, repairing guns - you are a "gunsmith" and require a license.
The "non-gunsmith" only make the 'occasional' repair, if you use your common sense, you won't get in trouble.
"Can't leave it with them"... What's the difference between me leaving a rifle with a friend for a week, and me leaving a rifle with a friend for a week and it comes back with a new barrel? Nothing, further, the ATF realizes that something like "fitting a stock" might take several days or more.
But what if everyday, all day people came and went into your shop and came out the same day with a repaired gun, I would argue that makes you a gunsmith, even though nothing stays overnight.
The overnight rule is not a good test.
The litmus test is more along the lines of diversity of 'customers', frequency, regularity, and how much you make in relation to the rest of your income...
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barnbwt
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Ya'll haven't seen butcher & rape until you've seen parts kits nowadays. Nothing any Bubba does phases me after I've seen what the ATF makes us do to rare, valuable, and historical items that come into this country with no ill intent.
Check out my Izzy FN Model D LMG --that receiver is gonna live again some day, but may curses be upon the idiots in current & previous administrations that go to such lengths to destroy historical artifacts, and the ignorant masses who nod in approval.
TCB
Check out my Izzy FN Model D LMG --that receiver is gonna live again some day, but may curses be upon the idiots in current & previous administrations that go to such lengths to destroy historical artifacts, and the ignorant masses who nod in approval.
TCB
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