Shooting USPSA and I 'm slow-way slow. Hints/tips please

The good news is that, at that level and level of experience, improvement is likely to come quickly and easily... you surely have a LOT of low-hanging fruit to pick. A few random thoughts, based on nothing in particular except running a club match that sees lots of new shooters every year and then getting to watch those guys/gals improve (or not improve):

1. If you learn by reading, read one of the good books. I personally like this one a lot: http://astore.amazon.com/bensto02-20/detail/1533397716

2. You say you lack athletic ability because you drive a desk. Lots of highly-classified shooters are flat-out obese. Being very fit is helpful, but it's not essential. What is essential is that when you move, you move with urgency. Lots of shooters - including guys who run marathons or who were serious high school or even college athletes - tiptoe through stages. To hell with that. If you need to move, MOVE! Move like you're playing shortstop and a ball has been hit into the hole, or like your toddler is playing in the street and a cement mixer is barreling towards them... you HAVE to get there, and being .5 seconds late getting there is as bad as not getting there at all. That's the mentality for movement, IMO.

3. Lots of dryfire. Lots of draws and reloads especially. Just like with your feet, get used to moving your hands fast. Slow is not fast. Fast is fast.

4. Don't worry about breaking the shot faster. Do everything else faster. Get the gun up and ready to fire faster (and before your feet stop moving if you're coming in to a position). Move your eyes between targets faster. Run as fast as you can. Break the shot when the sights are telling you.

5. Get used to firing - or at least aiming - without being completely "settled" into position. Lots of people coming from a square range background really seem to want to "settle" into a shooting position for quite a while before they can really begin the process of shooting. Nuts to that. Be looking at the front sight while you're still "settling," and as soon as it tells you that you're aimed at the A-zone, go for it.

It's possible that some or all of the above doesn't apply to you, but, IME, these things apply to basically all new USPSA shooters, especially slow ones. There are surely many other individual-specific points, but the above are near-universal. Next most common would be completely ineffective recoil control, but that is more individualized to identify and fix... and it's possible you don't have that issue.

Note: I'm a B-class shooter, so I've got no tips on how to get really good. But I know how to get from terrible to mediocre!

Practice point shooting more. As said above , you can't get too settled into a sight picture or stance.
On close targets, 3 yards and under especially, you have to get to the point where you don't even look at the sights. Practice dry firing at close targets without looking at your sights, then check your alignment with the sights periodically. You will develop confidence in your point shooting and be much faster.
For more distance targets , practice bringing gun up to sight picture on target. If you seem to have trouble getting a quick sight picture, try playing with your grip until you get something that allows you to easily get the gun on target instinctively.
Really, just about dry practice. Once you have developed decent trigger pull technique, it's really all about getting the gun pointed quickly on target. Don't even need to really practice the trigger pull as much, just lots of pointing at many different targets from different positions.

Dudedog said:

So far goals are eliminate hitting no shoots. (seem to manage two or 2 a match, last match I had none), eliminate missed targets (2 - 5 of those)1/2 of these were mental errors not accuracy issues.
My first match I shot slower and more accurate but my HF was lower.

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what do you mean by mental errors? Missed arrays/targets?

Your first match you were more accurate but slow as molasses. correct?
However when you picked up the pace, you got serious penalties. correct?
It sounds like you were going to fast for your skill level. What kind of drills do you practice? Dry fire regimen? what kind of sights are you running?

Your shooting single stack minor.. your goal has to be all A's and speed will have to come later.

While I agree with ATL on exploding out of position and to positions it will likely end in a train wreck from what you have described. As every no shoot hit, you might as well crawled between positions on your belly...

Ive been a desk jockey for 25yrs and thats not an excuse. But you have to have your fundamentals correct first, before you can excel.

tarosean said:

While I agree with ATL on exploding out of position and to positions it will likely end in a train wreck from what you have described. As every no shoot hit, you might as well crawled between positions on your belly...

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I really don't think there's a tradeoff between moving hard between positions and accuracy. In fact, I think a lot of D-level shooters feel more time pressure because they (correctly) sense that the time is really piling up on a stage... which just means they whack the trigger before the sights say it's ok. There's just no downside to running hard between positions.... then shoot however fast the sights say to.

Further elaboration: Note that my post was based on the "non-diagnostic" stuff. Without understanding the specifics of what targets are being missed (are these 4 yard hosers? 25 yard WHO standards targets with a bunch of hardcover? 10 yard partials with no-shoots? movers?), I certainly cannot say whether "fundamentals" are the issue or something else. The things I mentioned are things that I have observed to be almost universal among new shooters, and completely universal to new shooters who know they are slow.

Now, is it likely that the OP has some issue with recoil control or trigger press? Possibly. That wouldn't be surprising at all. Is it likely that the OP has issues with stage planning? Sure seems that way from the comment about mental errors. But based on what is available, the advice might or might not be different.

ATLDave said:

I certainly cannot say whether "fundamentals" are the issue or something else.

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yeah its impossible to diagnose with limited info + no video + no practiscore, etc. etc.

If you are a D class shooter finishing at 20% at a local match with only a handful of penalties, my first instinct is that you are SLLLLOOOOWWW, super slow, and that is going to be the lowest hanging fruit... you will need to speed up everything. Particularly gun handling and movement, and being ready to shoot when you get into a position. I would second what ATLDave said.

In addition to developing the physical skills, virtually all new shooters also don't visualize the stage enough to make that quick/immediate flow through the stage happen. Develop a plan of EXACTLY what you are going to do during the walkthrough period. Then close your eyes if you have to, and visualize you actually shooting your plan about ten times in your head. Then when the buzzer goes off, you do not have to think about what your next step is... you should be on autopilot in more of an observational mode. Thinking takes time, and if you are doing it on the clock, that is bad.

Video is one of the best tools for people in your current situation. If you can get some from your next match, post it up, and we can likely quickly evaluate the very best places for you to start shaving time.

Like said... Dryfire all the gun handling items like draws, reloads. Start driving the time down on that stuff.

Peter Gun said:

Practice point shooting more. As said above , you can't get too settled into a sight picture or stance.
On close targets, 3 yards and under especially, you have to get to the point where you don't even look at the sights. Practice dry firing at close targets without looking at your sights, then check your alignment with the sights periodically. You will develop confidence in your point shooting and be much faster.
For more distance targets , practice bringing gun up to sight picture on target. If you seem to have trouble getting a quick sight picture, try playing with your grip until you get something that allows you to easily get the gun on target instinctively.
Really, just about dry practice. Once you have developed decent trigger pull technique, it's really all about getting the gun pointed quickly on target. Don't even need to really practice the trigger pull as much, just lots of pointing at many different targets from different positions.

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This is pretty bad advice.
Practicing to ignore your sights in certain situations is not a good idea.
And the majority of shooters have bad trigger control, so suggesting that trigger control isn't needed doesn't help either.

Ok, I'm no grand master. It's advice that helped me. Yes you have to get the fundamentals down first, but point shooting is certainly an important part of shooting fast.

For me the easiest thing to improve your scores, is to get to your shooting position faster. This doesn't require any fine motor skills or lots of practice, if you can save 1-2 seconds on each transition/movement you've got more time to aim.

Someone once told me that you should never take more steps than necessary to get to a target/shooting position. Not sure if he was an A or D shooter, but it makes sense- more steps=more time

Cautious/tentative reaction: That's an odd-ish mix of a fair number of A's to go with a pantload of misses. Suggests* that it's not primarily a "cone of dispersion" issue (i.e., you just can't shoot straight). You're likely doing something different on those misses and no-shoots. Not seeing the sights, or pulling off on your way to another target/position, or... Do YOU see any pattern in them? How many of them are FTE (never even shot at the target)?

* Unless there's a LOT of steel at those matches, which can "artificially" inflate A's - because steel is either an A or an M. Or just a ton of super close targets and then a smaller number of quite challenging targets. Or something similarly atypical about the match setup itself.

Dudedog said:

Would asking them to wait for me to see the targets before they get taped be considered poor etiquette? (not trying to imply they weren't scored correctly but would like to see where I hit them)

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Follow whomever is calling the scores.. Pick up your mags, etc. afterwards while they are pasting.

You definitely need to work on better scores before you think of going faster.

Pulling the trigger well and improving overall speed is not and either/or proposition. You need to do both, and you can do both at the same time.
It is not bad etiquette to want to see your targets; especially one with a mike. Generally it is bad etiquette for the scorers/pasters to NOT show you a target with a mike. Maybe for a newbie who is having a relatively high number, they won't call you to every one, but don't hesitate to slow the scorer down if you have a question.

The good news is that for a D shooter without a serious physical ailment, there is low hanging fruit EVERYWHERE... a little bit of focused practice, or even just more general match experience is likely to get you big gains everywhere.

Video is probably the next best tool as already mentioned.
As far as stage plans, if you think you are still having issues, you can watch what the more experienced guys do, and copy theirs if they are in a similar round count division. Don't be afraid to do that, or ask others what they would recommend in terms of stage planning.

You also mentioned a couple times looking at holes in the target. 95% of the time you should not see, nor be looking for, holes in the targets as you are shooting. It is a difficult skill to fully develop, so this probably wont happen overnight, but you need to work toward calling the shot off your sights and knowing pretty much where it went based on what you see in your sights and feel in your trigger pull. Looking at the target is taking up time that should be spent transitioning to the next shot or target.

Dudedog said:

Would asking them to wait for me to see the targets before they get taped be considered poor etiquette? (not trying to imply they weren't scored correctly but would like to see where I hit them).

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If the folks hosting the match are following USPSA rules, you can (most do) accompany the RO during scoring. This is done because scores can be challenged by the shooter, there are some exceptions, but generally this must be done before the they are pasted.

Keep in mind that you aren't supposed to touch the actual targets before they are score, although this rule may not be enforced at lower level matches.

Yep, you can follow the RO. He/she will likely be trying to move fast, so you'll have to hustle. If you hear a call that you think is really surprising (e.g., you called two good hits or saw two holes and they say "charlie mike") you can say "hang on, can I see that?" You don't want to do that a lot, but it's allowed.

Of course, for a two-mike target, there's nothing to see! Or at least nothing is different as a result of pasting.

ATLDave said:

You don't want to do that a lot, but it's allowed.

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Dont see why not... Only thing that is truly annoying is the guys that want to argue every close shot or want the overlay broken out on every Mic.

Well, you don't want to be the shooter whose scoring takes 4 times as long as any other competitor because you want to scrutinize every C/D target to see if you can find a second charlie. The shooter has a right to examine the targets... and an etiquette/social-norm obligation not to unduly delay the match. That's what I meant by "You don't want to do that [holding up pasting while you examine a target] a lot."

If they are scoring any taping while you are shooting, or just after you finish, you can assign someone to walk with the RO while they score the targets and check them for you. Otherwise, you are free to do it if you want.

At the top of this thread a poster (ATLDave) recommended a Ben Stoeger book. That book is very good and I hope you have purchased it. Ben also has several books with practice drills, especially his dry fire drills book. If you really want to see your scores improve you need to devote at least 5 days/week to dry fire. Even if it's only 5-10 minutes/day, if you make the effort it will reward you.

Along with dry fire, you should consider getting a shot timer or an app for your phone. Having a 4 second delay start tone and a "par" setting that give the start beep then another at a pre-set time is good to help increase speed in practice. Also if you use a shot timer all the time at practice you will get used to the sound and the dread feeling we get when it's our turn to shoot will go away. Make up some dummy rounds for dry fire and even spend time doing reload training. Make or buy scale down practice targets and set up mini-courses in your dry fire room.

I just put my first dot sight on my revo and at first I couldn't draw and find the dot quickly. I practiced, practiced and practiced draws to first shot. Over and over. Eyes open, eyes closed. Then one day I went from not finding the dot without a lot of struggle to draw-there it is!

I'm not advertising for another forum but the Brian Enos forum is mainly USPSA shooters. There is a ton of support and a lot of videos and tips/suggestions there. FYI I'm not a good shooter by any stretch of the imagination so I don't even post there, just browse. I've been fooling around with USPSA and IDPA for 4 years, happy to just shoot and not come in dead last. But this year is going to be different. I have been dry firing daily since Jan 1. My main thing is going to be steel because I wanted to use a dot and a dot on a revo puts it in USPSA open class. So when I shoot USPSA this year it will be production auto, which I'm even worse at then revo. I'm just going to do a few local club matches, my main focus this year will be Steel Challenge OSR (Optical Sight Revolver). I'm going to shoot 10 or more matches this year in steel challenge plus local other steel and a little IDPA revolver also.

So another thing to consider if you haven't already is steel challenge. You will get a lot of draws under pressure and fast target acquisition. My first steel match this year is a week away.

If you are not familiar with the very newest rules, there is a "Carry optics" division that is brand new, that is basically Production-legal gun, plus a slide mounted red dot and 140mm magazines. For those who may have vision issues or otherwise just want to shoot a dot in a division that should become at least mildly popular, and with a lower cost of entry for a competitive setup than Open, CO is now an option.