Sooting AND Flattend/mushroomed primers??

Larryswn · Mar 21, 2017

I'm new to reloading so bare with me

Made my first .223 loads for my AR a week ago. I only made 20 rounds and followed the recipe in my Hornady book. I did not start with the highest grain load as the book warns. They were accurate and cycled great but I noticed that the necks had soot on the outside. Some people say that common for the AR but factory loads have NEVER come outta my rifle looking like that. The first thing I thought was low pressure because obviously the neck did not expand and seal. The brass is brand new and fits perfect in the head space gauge and are the correct length. What puzzled me is how I could have soot Mushroomed primers? Mushroomed primers are a sign of high pressure and soot is the opposite...........I made 20 more loads with a grain less powder (25.6). Primers only flattened to the point of losing half of their bevel which from what I understand is perfect. But, now the entire case is sooted all the way to the head. After 20 rounds the upper receiver was filthy. Dirty like a .22LR. I feel like I need more powder to the case to expand and seal but Im worried about the overly flat/ mushroomed primers. What the heck is going on?

MEHavey · Mar 21, 2017

Tell us the load/powder/bullet combo you used...

wally · Mar 21, 2017

Its going to be really hard to help without photos of the cases and primers.

redbullitt · Mar 22, 2017

Details. Details. Details.

Load info specifics will help us out a lot.

Do you mean cratered primers? Or backed out primers?

kitsapshooter · Mar 22, 2017

check your gas tube.

Glock Doctor · Mar 22, 2017

I'll second 'Check your gas tube'; and I'd suggest you stop using whatever powder those rounds were made with, and trying another powder. Maybe Vithavuori N133, or IMR 4895 — No matter what, though, use another powder! Check your primers, too.

And, yeah, complete specs on these rounds would be nice!

Deus Machina · Mar 22, 2017

My first thought, as someone experienced with following the recipe but not in experimenting with reloading, is to check the primers.
If you're using pistol primers, as opposed to specifically small rifle primers, the metal cup they're made of will be thinner and therefore softer, which would explain excess deformation (though I'd kind of expect them to blow out) and the charge in them may be smaller, which would cause a slower burn rate, which could in turn (discounting dirty powder or a low load already) explain lower pressure and a dirty burn.
Caveat: I'm just a stickler for verifying everything in a load, but I'm no reloading expert.

hdwhit · Mar 22, 2017

kitsapshooter wrote:
check your gas tube.

When you direct the OP to check his gas tube, what is it he should be looking for? A leak? A kink? The tube partially blocked?

Walkalong · Mar 22, 2017

Bump up the load a little, staying withing the listed data. I doubt the primers are showing high pressure signs. Pics would be nice though.

hdwhit · Mar 22, 2017

Larryswn wrote:
Made my first .223 loads for my AR a week ago. I only made 20 rounds and followed the recipe in my Hornady book.... but I noticed that the necks had soot on the outside. ... What puzzled me is how I could have soot Mushroomed primers?

In addition to the photographs, load data and rifle inspections that others have suggested, could you also tell us what rifle you were firing these cartridges in and how long the barrel is?

Could you also tell us which edition of the Hornady manual you are using?

Bart B. · Mar 22, 2017

Case necks are not pressed against chamber necks, if at all, until the bullet is several inches down the barrel when pressure is at its peak. Normally, they're not.

It's common when bullets jump a long way to the rifling.

I've shot proof loads (67,500 cup) in rifles with normal chambers and there's black-grey powder residue on their necks.

Some powders are very dirty.

muncie21 · Mar 22, 2017

Pictures please

hdwhit · Mar 22, 2017

Bart B wrote:
Some powders are very dirty.

Amen.

Since the OP hasn't posted a follow-up, I went back and re-read the post.

I only made 20 rounds and followed the recipe in my Hornady book. I did not start with the highest grain load as the book warns. ... I made 20 more loads with a grain less powder (25.6).

Looking at editions of the Hornady Handbook from the 8th Edition and later, unless the OP was using a 40 or 45 grain bullet, the only recipe where he could have loaded a 26.6 grain load and still been below maximum and then reduced by a full grain to get to 25.6 grains and still been on the table appears to be with Winchester 748.

In November 1980 and then in August 1981, I loaded 400 rounds with 25.0 grains of WW748 under a 60 grain Hornady bullet. These chronographed at (in round numbers) 2,800 fps and my notes from the time show enough sooting on the case neck that I bothered to write about it. So, if the OP is using WW748, this could just be a commonplace.

Archie · Mar 22, 2017

I have experienced partially set back primers with too low pressure a load. What happens is the pressure - as always - pushes on the primer, but with too little pressure, the case is not 'pushed back' to the bolt or recoil face to reseat the primer.

As an exaggerated example of this, fire a primer only - no charge, no bullet - in a revolver. One will find the primer is set back. Possibly it will make rotating the cylinder or opening the cylinder difficult as well.

Larryswn · Mar 22, 2017

View attachment 231978 View attachment 231984 View attachment 231978

These are NOT my primers, I couldn't get a good pic because they're so small, found this image on the net. But if you look at the primer in the middle, that's how mine were looking (minus the hole in the center). Mushroom shaped, but not nearly as bad as the pic, much less pronounced. For the most part the primers were just flat, no more beveled edge but a couple started to mushroom a bit. When the primers were looking like that I was using Hornady 9th edition manual with WSR small rifle primer, Hornady bullet 55GR FMJ-BT W/C and CFE 223 powder. I was at 26.7 grain powder with those and only had soot on the neck. Then I bumped down to 25.5 gr and the entire case was sooted. The recipe ranges from 24.8 gr, 25.5 gr, 26.1 gr, 26.7 gr and 27.4 gr. I clean my gas tube on a very regular basis btw. Maybe a flattend primer isn't a big deal and if I just go to max load (27.4) The neck will expand? Btw the throat in this rifle is pretty long. They've got to go a good distance to hit the lands. Put it this way, if I wanted to seat to the lands the mag would have to be about 1/8" bigger because the bullets wouldn't even fit. Rifle is M&P 15 sport 2, 16" barrel 1/9 twist.. Just a reminder, pretty sure rifle is fine because factory loads don't soot at all, not even the slightest bit. Thank you guys for all the feedback thus far!............Last but not least, YES the O.A.L is correct and I do crimp. The crimp is ever so slight, you have to look VERY closely to even tell there's a crimp so I doubt it's too tight. The round in my hand shows crimp, can't really see it though.....

Larryswn · Mar 22, 2017

Archie said:
I have experienced partially set back primers with too low pressure a load. What happens is the pressure - as always - pushes on the primer, but with too little pressure, the case is not 'pushed back' to the bolt or recoil face to reseat the primer.

As an exaggerated example of this, fire a primer only - no charge, no bullet - in a revolver. One will find the primer is set back. Possibly it will make rotating the cylinder or opening the cylinder difficult as well.

I didn't think about that, I think I'll load a few to the max and see what happens..............I don't own a revolver can I try primer only in my AR? Is a primer alone loud enough the neighbors will call the cops?

Larryswn · Mar 22, 2017

Walkalong said:
Bump up the load a little, staying withing the listed data. I doubt the primers are showing high pressure signs. Pics would be nice though.

Posted a pic

Deus Machina · Mar 23, 2017

Archie said:
I have experienced partially set back primers with too low pressure a load. What happens is the pressure - as always - pushes on the primer, but with too little pressure, the case is not 'pushed back' to the bolt or recoil face to reseat the primer.

As an exaggerated example of this, fire a primer only - no charge, no bullet - in a revolver. One will find the primer is set back. Possibly it will make rotating the cylinder or opening the cylinder difficult as well.

Didn't think of that in this case, but I can confirm it.
Loaded a few like that for a friend's college film project and now have a set of five with the flash holes drilled out and the headstamps marked up and I crimped the heck out of the necks so I wouldn't put actual loads in them.
Yes, when they had a standard hole, the primers made it difficult to operate. No problem with them opened up.
About the report of a firecracker. Wouldn't set it off around neighbors on a normal day. Just about right to use as a mark and flash to video-edit, though.

Maybe a low load really is the problem, then? Primer unseats, pressure builds and expands the cup without first seating the brass back?

Bartojc · Mar 23, 2017

Archie said:
I have experienced partially set back primers with too low pressure a load. What happens is the pressure - as always - pushes on the primer, but with too little pressure, the case is not 'pushed back' to the bolt or recoil face to reseat the primer.

As an exaggerated example of this, fire a primer only - no charge, no bullet - in a revolver. One will find the primer is set back. Possibly it will make rotating the cylinder or opening the cylinder difficult as well.

When I experimented with reduced loads for 30-06 I was warned by some here that I may get pushed back primers due to low pressure. I never did, but it is obviously not unheard of. I usually caution recommending people go higher, but it in this case as long as the OP is within published limits I would say he should up the charge a bit and see it things get better.

-jeff

Walkalong · Mar 23, 2017

Larryswn said:
Posted a pic

The one of the round is fine, but we need one of the primer. It's hard to believe yours looked like the one in the pic from the net. It may have backed out a hair, not been pushed back in fully, and may look odd to you, but if your info on the load is correct, it's just too light.

Hodgdon online data shows 24.7 to 27.4 Grs of CFE with a 55 Gr bullet and Winchester primer. Assuming you are measuring the powder correctly, and I have no doubt you are, you're simply too low.

Arkansas Paul · Mar 23, 2017

Were the primers starting to back out of the primer pockets at all?

Larryswn · Mar 23, 2017

Arkansas Paul said:
Were the primers starting to back out of the primer pockets at all?

Yes

Larryswn · Mar 23, 2017

Walkalong said:
The one of the round is fine, but we need one of the primer. It's hard to believe yours looked like the one in the pic from the net. It may have backed out a hair, not been pushed back in fully, and may look odd to you, but if your info on the load is correct, it's just too light.

Hodgdon online data shows 24.7 to 27.4 Grs of CFE with a 55 Gr bullet and Winchester primer. Assuming you are measuring the powder correctly, and I have no doubt you are, you're simply too low.

Yeah, I made a few last night to max load. Gonna see how it goes. Thank you guys very much. This is the best pic I could get. Primer on the left if you look at the top you can see it starting to curl. Primer on the right is brand new

Blue68f100 · Mar 23, 2017

Make sure you not into the lands with your OAL. If so you can reach over pressure conditions at well below max, even at min.

Walkalong · Mar 23, 2017

Good point.

Sooting AND Flattend/mushroomed primers??

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