Barrel touching stock on new rifle?

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Shoot it first.
My Weatherby Vanguard is not free floated and it shoots MOA. Would it shoot better with a free floated barrel? I have no idea, neither do I care. I don't need better than that, and in all honesty probably could not shoot well enough to make use of the difference. I realize that some can, and if you are one of them, then by all means, work on it and chase the groups.

I will say that while I have not shot for groups in various weather conditions, I have shot the rifle in 100 degree temps at the range with excellent results and have shot deer at 200+ yards with the temperature in the teens and have not noticed a difference. Now granted, I didn't see what a 3 or 5 shot group would do with the weather in the teens, but the bullet landed just behind the shoulder just like it was supposed to and that's what matters to me.

I see no reason to work on this rifle for my uses.
 
Does the rifles zero change every hunting season, after sitting in the rack for a year? This is when using the same ammo.

Then removing a pressure point and glass bedding the action is worth while.

Accuracy may or may not improve.

Maintaining zero in a hunting rifle , in changing weather conditions , may benefit also. Mostly wood stocks.
 
salt&battery said:
why would a guy that shot a clover leaf ,which they say is one of the best groups, alter the rifle?
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You would have to know him personally to understand. Some people are set in their ways and/ or gullible. He has always believed that a barrel had to be floated. Wrong! I had a Mark X that needed a little help. One of my gunsmith books mentioned using a business card about 3" from the the tip of the forearm for upward pressure. It worked. Shrank the groups from 1 3/4" to around an inch.
 
Why would a guy that shot a clover leaf, which they say is one of the best groups, alter the rifle?

Because the largest groups his stuff shoots is the size of a tennis ball. He knows clover leafs (the smallest groups) happen most often when all the variables typically cancel each other out. He knows the biggest groups show what happens when the variables mostly add up in all directions. Most important, he knows clover leafs are mostly luck because they don't happen with every group shot. He knows accuracy is best defined by the largest groups; that's what can be counted on with every few shots he takes. He knows if enough few shot groups are fired with any rifle, a clover leaf will eventually happen.

I knew a guy who claimed his rifle shot all bullets into zero MOA. They all went into the same hole at the end of the barrel when they left it. Center to center across all was zero.
 
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Bart B. said:
Why would a guy that shot a clover leaf, which they say is one of the best groups, alter the rifle?

Because the largest groups his stuff shoots is the size of a tennis ball. He knows clover leafs (the smallest groups) happen most often when all the variables typically cancel each other out. He knows the biggest groups show what happens when the variables mostly add up in all directions. Most important, he knows clover leafs are mostly luck because they don't happen with every group shot. He knows accuracy is best defined by the largest groups; that's what can be counted on with every few shots he takes. He knows if enough few shot groups are fired with any rifle, a clover leaf will eventually happen.

I knew a guy who claimed his rifle shot all bullets into zero MOA. They all went into the same hole at the end of the barrel when they left it. Center to center across all was zero.
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yep a broken clock is right twice a day lol
 
I vote "shoot it first", with several different loads. Get to know it and what its likes and dislikes ammo wise. I'm not a bedding expert but I've seen Remingtons with that pressure point in the forearm that shoot great and their owners left it that way. I've seen free floated Remingtons that also shoot great. Go figure........ I once had a rifle, (not a Remington) that shot better AFTER a pressure point was put in the forearm, but it was in a cheap injection molded plastic stock. That same rifle is now in a Bell & Carlson synthetic stock with an aluminum bedding block for the action, and a free floated barrel and it shoots better than ever. So my theory is that some of that bedding business may also be due to how the rifles action is bedded and not solely just if the barrel is free floating or not. As far as those forearm pressure points in Remingtons; I always figured some guys at the factory know a lot more than I do about it and they must be there for some reason. I've got an older Remington Mod. 700 Varmint Special with a pressure point...... shoots so good I'd never want to free float that barrel.
 
Arkansas Paul said:
If it aint broke, break it.
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Ive done that!


With factory sporters, pretty much all i own, ive found that floating barrels without doing any action bedding can cause them to behave oddly at times. Its rare as far as i know, but ive had two guns that did better before floating.

My old rem 700bdl shot plenty adequately, 1.5" if i remeber correctly, this was back in highschool. After i took the pressure pad out of the front end i found it started shooting 2-2.5" with the same loads. I didnt know enough to try bed the action at the time, and honestly i didnt use the gun much cause id bought myself a 7mag.
It sat in my closet till i got back into shooting in 06 at which point i bedded the reciever and it proceeded to go back to producing solid 1-1.5" groups.

The other gun that did wierd stuff was that 7 mag, after a rebarrel to 300, and restock into a boyds thumbhole. The 7 shot 120-140s really well 1" or better groups for 5 shots wasnt unusual. After swaping the parts it shot the first round a couple inches left from the rest, the others would all go into a nice if unspectacular group. Moving a plastic shim around the barrel channel i got it to quit tossing the first shot left, groups varied from awful to acceptable depending on where the shim was.in the barrel channel. I did get it situated where it worked fine.

Obviously something was wrong with both guns, on the rem most likely something wierd with the action inletting. On the rebarreled savage im not sure, I took it apart and put it back together a few times, and bedded the action, one thing i was doing at this time was putting epoxy under the first 2" or so of the barrel which might have been the issue. Ill never know as i sold both guns not long after i started shooting again.

All my current rifles are action bedded and floated, all shoot well if not great.
 
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You can take aluminum foil fold it , keeping wrinkles out & place a folded piece under the front & back of the action in the fit .Same thickness both ends & add more untill the barrel clears the pressure point . Shoot & see if it likes being floated . Most I've permanently floated did not like the same loads as before floating & in all cases the accuracy did not improve but the stability did
 
outlawjw said:
You can take aluminum foil fold it , keeping wrinkles out & place a folded piece under the front & back of the action in the fit .Same thickness both ends & add more untill the barrel clears the pressure point . Shoot & see if it likes being floated . Most I've permanently floated did not like the same loads as before floating & in all cases the accuracy did not improve but the stability did
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stability is very important maybe most important
 
outlawjw said:
Most I've permanently floated did not like the same loads as before floating & in all cases the accuracy did not improve but the stability did
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What part of the rifle had it's stability improve? How was that measured?

I've pulled fore end shims out of a few rifles and they did indeed shoot a little less accurate with several loads. After epoxy bedding or shim fitting their receivers with the barrel free floated with enough clearance to the fore end to prevent contact when each bends, accuracy was best with all loads.
 
LoonWulf said:
Ive done that!


With factory sporters, pretty much all i own, ive found that floating barrels without doing any action bedding can cause them to behave oddly at times. Its rare as far as i know, but ive had two guns that did better before floating.

My old rem 700bdl shot plenty adequately, 1.5" if i remeber correctly, this was back in highschool. After i took the pressure pad out of the front end i found it started shooting 2-2.5" with the same loads. I didnt know enough to try bed the action at the time, and honestly i didnt use the gun much cause id bought myself a 7mag.
It sat in my closet till i got back into shooting in 06 at which point i bedded the reciever and it proceeded to go back to producing solid 1-1.5" groups.

The other gun that did wierd stuff was that 7 mag, after a rebarrel to 300, and restock into a boyds thumbhole. The 7 shot 120-140s really well 1" or better groups for 5 shots wasnt unusual. After swaping the parts it shot the first round a couple inches left from the rest, the others would all go into a nice if unspectacular group. Moving a plastic shim around the barrel channel i got it to quit tossing the first shot left, groups varied from awful to acceptable depending on where the shim was.in the barrel channel. I did get it situated where it worked fine.

Obviously something was wrong with both guns, on the rem most likely something wierd with the action inletting. On the rebarreled savage im not sure, I took it apart and put it back together a few times, and bedded the action, one thing i was doing at this time was putting epoxy under the first 2" or so of the barrel which might have been the issue. Ill never know as i sold both guns not long after i started shooting again.

All my current rifles are action bedded and floated, all shoot well if not great.
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I do not know how Remington fits the action in the stock being they are the only rifle I saw that might not benefit from floating the barrel. would not get worse but not better. older savage rifles with cheap stock would not shoot near potential without generous space between barrel and stock. a bipod would put up pressure on the barrel without enough clearance.
that is one thing not mentioned by the guys that did not float their barrels don't say if they shoot with slings and or bipods which with a barrel touching the stock using a sling would pull the barrel throwing shots. bipod would be putting pressure also
 
A rifle that shoots to the same POA each time it's taken for a shoot & holds POA when shooting with a sling or pod or leaning up against a fence post . Is a stabil rifle. One that has a pressure point , or is rubbing the stock with the barrel , has to be be treated like a baby to keep POA & POI together.
 
outlawjw said:
A rifle that shoots to the same POA each time it's taken for a shoot & holds POA when shooting with a sling or pod or leaning up against a fence post . Is a stabil rifle.
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I've never had a rifle that did that. Depending on how they're held against my body and supported by my arms, or rested against some hard place, they will change point of impact relative to point of aim. The barrel moves around where it points while the bullet goes through it. Where it ends up upon bullet exit varies with how it's held.

Same rifle shot by four people shouldering it typically has a different zero for each person. Zero's vary across a 2 MOA spread. Done this a few times to notice it's the same every time. Free floated barrels in all of them.
 
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Captcurt said:
I have seen it happen. I have a friend who believed a rifle barrel "HAD" to be floated. He bought a Rem 700 30-06 that would cloverleaf a 5 shot group, floated the barrel and the thing went to crap. We finally had to glass bed the action and about 4" of the barrel channel to get it back to halfway decent. At best it was 1 1/4" groups. It never did shoot as good as it did originally.
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More likely, the stock fit poorly and he didn't get it settled back home well.

Do that 5 times in a row with 5 rifles, and I might believe it's more than a fluke. But after free floating a couple hundred rifles and test firing before and after, I have NEVER seen any rifle shoot worse afterwards if the action was well bedded.

I HAVE heard (and read online) a lot of stories about guys buddies' sister's husband's 2nd cousin's ex boyfriends' rifles which shot better before free floating, but have never seen it happen in any real rifle which didn't have other stock problems.
 
shootstraight57 said:
Didn't we have this discussion about free floating a barrel on another thread?
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Yes, and I've come to the same conclusions about it.

People who judge accuracy with 1 or 2 few-shot groups reach all sorts of conclusions across them.

Those who asses accuracy by a group of a couple dozen shots or more each group want the barrel well clear of the fore end and the receiver well bedded.

Furthermore, if there's any fore end contact with the barrel, there's no way it'll be consistent across all methods of holding the rifle when shot.
 
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Remington does this with all their rifles.
so here is my opinion........ Wood stocks change with the weather. Literally! So if it's a wood stock, definitely float it. A very humid day, or getting caught in a rainstorm will definitely change the characteristics of the wood. However slowly.
A synthetic stock, I would try it first, but ultimately I would float the barrel.
 
I have several that do that , if I work with one & can't get it to that point it's gone. Used to be an accurate rifle (1/2 moa or less ) was 1/1000 , now days it's more like 1/100. Just talking from experience not any scientific facts. I don't have time or desire for competitions any more , did that with archery gear , but I do shoot approx. 100 RDS a week in my back yard. Different guns of coarse. I take people's guns & work up the best load & tune the rifle itself up , then give it back to them with all info they need to keep it that way & yes if you know how to handle your rifle so as to not put torque on the barrel it will shoot the same from any position
 
Bart B. said:
Any contact of fore end to barrel transfers all the variable external forces on the fore end to the barrel. They change where the barrel points relative to the line of sight when the bullets leave.
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This is a key point. Even if some barrel mounting or harmonic issue makes the gun shoot better groups on the bench with stock contact, it will likely not shoot better in the field when your shooting position is much less controlled and variable pressure on the stock is transferred to the barrel.
 
Llama Bob said:
This is a key point. Even if some barrel mounting or harmonic issue makes the gun shoot better groups on the bench with stock contact, it will likely not shoot better in the field when your shooting position is much less controlled and variable pressure on the stock is transferred to the barrel.
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in other words in the real world, not bench resting the rifle he same way in fair weather with 3 inches of stock contact in the fore end with 3 shot groups, floating the barrel is the best for the rifle
 
Bart B. said:
Barrels shoot best (most accurate) when free floated.
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Not always. It depends on the barrel profile.

Thin, lightweight barrel usually group more consistently if there is some preload on the barrel.

Bart B. said:
Any contact of fore end to barrel transfers all the variable external forces on the fore end to the barrel. They change where the barrel points relative to the line of sight when the bullets leave.
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Sometimes, if the barrel is thin and flexible (a sporter profile) the stock pressure damps out the barrel movement.

Example: Shoot a British factory reworked SMLE as stocked, then remove the entire fore end, and shoot it again. The groups will open up considerably.

The only time you really want to free float is if you have a bull barrel.
 
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salt&battery said:
Captcurt said:
I have seen it happen. I have a friend who believed a rifle barrel "HAD" to be floated. He bought a Rem 700 30-06 that would cloverleaf a 5 shot group, floated the barrel and the thing went to crap. We finally had to glass bed the action and about 4" of the barrel channel to get it back to halfway decent. At best it was 1 1/4" groups. It never did shoot as good as it did originally.
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why would a guy that shot a clover leaf ,which they say is one of the best groups, alter the rifle?
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Because they believe that, "barrels shoot best (most accurate) when free floated."

They don't "always".....
 
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