Question for Bolt Action Fanatics - Free Floating Barrel

[DesertRat]

Hi,

Here is a question for experienced bolt action users. Please describe how a properly free floated bolt action should behave. That is, should there be any noticeable play between the barrel and the last couple inches of the forearm on the stock such that when you lightly grasp the barrel and forearm that the barrel comes in contact with the forearm of the stock?

I ask this as I'm about to purchase a new bolt action gun and I immediately noticed when I first handled the rifle that I could hear an occasional clicking which I determined occurred when the forearm tapped the barrel. The bolt gun in question is a new Winchester Model 70 Super Grade (current production). Winchester LISTS this gun AS HAVING a free floated barrel.

Interestingly, I attempted to slide a dollar bill (wrapped tightly around the barrel and held from the top) between the barrel and stock all the way down to the chamber; however, I was only able to side the bill into the stock to a depth the width of the bill. The dollar bill didn't want to move very freely at all. I ask this as I'm not experienced with free floated barrels and I was under the impression that a properly free floated barrel should never touch the stock (unless of course one firmly grasps the two and squeezes them together). What do you guys think?

Thanks,

DR

 

[Detritus]

the gun you describe does NOT meet the description of "free floated" i was taught. the gun has either a really crappy stock, is poorly beded, the bolts holding the action to the stock are improperly tightened, or all of this and or more.

the definition of "free floated" i was taught means that (as you staed you were lead to beleive), there is NO contact between the forearm and the barrel (the dollar bill slides all the way to the front of the receiver), properly done it takes deliberate pressure to make the forearm touch the barrel. in other words in the course of normal range/hunting use the barrel and stock should NOT come in contact.

in other words, unless the store/gunsmith is willing to take a look at the gun and fix it so that the problems you mention are resolved, this particular Mod 70 is a definate "PASS on it".

hope i've been of help.

 

[dakotasin]

demetritus pretty much has it wrapped up...

just wanted to add... floating a barrel is easy to do, or cheap to have a 'smith do, and should not be a sole reason to buy or pass on a given rifle. because of the popularity of synthetic stocks, the factories are looking for more cost-effective ways of putting them on their rifles. the days of high quality synthetic stocked rifles from the factory are mostly over (the synthetic stock on the rem ti seems to be an exception). now, we get stocks that have a feel very similiar to tupperware, along w/ all the flex that goes w/ it (savage seems to be the worst offender here, but definitely not the only one).

w/ a synthetic stock, grab the rifle as you are going to hold when you are going to shoot. if it touches, hog the channel out some more and repeat. not much you can do here, but eventually you can have a floated barrel w/ a flexible stock.

 

[308win]

Dakotasin nailed it. My Rem 700BDL has a synthetic stock w/heavy 5R barrel and you can slip a fairly thick piece of paper from end of forearm to the action. You can relieve some wood from the barrel channel however you may have to bed the action to get the accuracy you want. Also, make shure the swivel stud (if one is installed) on the forearm isn't interferring with the barrel.

 

[mete]

Often when gunsmiths glass bed a rifle they bed the action and about 2" of the barrel. Or you could bed just the action ,either way is good but you can check with a piece of paper. The reason for all this is that as the bullet travels down the barrel it sets up vibrations in the barrel. Anything that interferes with the vibrations can effect accuracy. This is why , when sighting in or shooting you should never rest the barrel on anything , use the stock.

 

[Steve Smith]

Just a note here. Non-free floated barrels aren't necessarily bad if they're done by a company that has been doing ift for years. Free floating just takes all the voodooo out of making the barrel shoot. The real issue for you is that your particular rifle is inconsistent. Points to a few things, like a weak stock (lots of flex) and insufficient clearance. I'd keep shopping or get a big discount.

 

[DesertRat]

Hey Fellas, thanks for all the help.

I'm STILL a little puzzled, I DON'T believe the stock is flexing one bit. The stock is very dense walnut with a dull oil finish. I've held the gun and kinda torqued it around in an attempt to determine just what was causing the almost inaudible clicking. Turning it sideways, then upside down then righting it.

I noticed the noise mostly when grasping the barrel near the forearm tip or when applying pressure to the barrel itself. Thus, I believe the barrel is actually flexing ever so slightly and meeting the stock. that stock appeared much too robust to actually be flexing with what little pressure I was appling. In fact, I'll bet I could detach the barreled action from the stock, place each end of the stock on two separate chairs and stand on it without some much as a bit of flex (I think ), and I weigh 185lbs.

Granted, I don't have the gun in front of me, but this gun was ordered from a distributor and shipped into the shop a few days later. This is a BRAND SPANKIN' NEW Model 70 Classic Super Grade. The stock is a beautiful, rich grained piece of art. The rifle looks exactly like this:

http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=535&type_id=024&cat=001C

Now as much as I like the looks--and mind you, this entire gun appears cosmetically flawless. I'm not about to be blinded by its looks if there's something wrong. I'm just trying to figure out of all current production model 70s are similar. Perhaps there is something else I've overlooked that may be causing this noise.

Thanks for any further help.

DR

 

[Steve Smith]

Ok, I was ASSuming that it was a factory plastic stock. They'll bend that much. You're probably right, its the barrel.

 

[DesertRat]

Steve,

So what's your opinion? Is this normal?

DR

 

[Legionnaire]

A sporter-weight barrel will flex slightly ... in fact, it "whips" when the gun is fired. This isn't necessarily a "bad thing" as long as it is consistent. As I understand it, free floating a barrel is done to give the barrel unobstructed movement under stress. You need to relieve sufficient material so that nothing comes in contact with the barrel when the gun is fired. A degree of flex is okay.

You desccribe the sound as "clicking." Does it sound like metal on metal? If so, I'd check to see if the forward sling stud has been incorrectly installed. It may be protruding into the barrel channel and causing the clicking you mention. Also, check the action screws to see they are appropriately torqued. When you yank on the barrel, does it appear that the action shifts in the stock at all? If the rear action screws are loose at all, this could cause what appears to be barrel flex. Any play between action and barrel, though, IS a bad thing.

You should be able to get your dollar bill (a couple, in fact) all the way back to a within an inch or two of the receiver/action. When it hangs up, does it seem to wedge itself in, or does it tap against something solid? The former might indicate that insufficient wood was removed from the barrel channel; the latter that the sling stud is improperly installed. Neither are hard to fix if you are at all handy. Work for a discount. Or you could tell 'em you'll buy when the gun is delivered "as advertised."

 

[Steve Smith]

Even a heavy barrel can bend. In fact, in Highpower we have very strong steel tubes installed under our AR handguards to help prevent the sling from bending the barrel, and believe me, our barrels are FAT (under the handguards at least.) A bending barrel shouldn't concern you, but I'd want more clearance between the barrel and stock if they touch easily. The most important thing is consistency. Either the stock touches the same way all the time, or it never touches.

 

[hps1]

I wouldn't worry too much about the barrel touching the barrel channel as it is extremely easy to remove enough wood to clear. Not sure how Winchester is bedding their classic rifles, but a few years ago, they used what looks like hot glue in the recoil lug area and that was "bedded". It is quite common for factory rifles to need a bit of tweaking to get the ultimate in accuracy from them.

The main advantage of free floated barrel IMO is that humidity changes can cause a wooden stock to warp and if not floated will change POI and group sizes.

First I would check the action screws to be sure they are tightened properly. Start with the front and rear screw just tight enough to pull action into the stock and then tighten front screw first to 55 to 65 inch lbs if you have access to a torque wrench (if not that is pretty darn snug to real tight w/screwdriver ). Next tighten the rear screw the same. Center screw is only there to hold the trigger guard and should be just snug. Do not over tighten this center screw as it can actually put the receiver in a bind and cause sticky bolt. Then I would try the dollar bill to see if it clears. If not, remove action and find a deep socket or other round object that is just smaller than the barrel channel and roll a piece of sandpaper around it; proceed to sand enough material from channel to give desired clearance. Notice if the top of sling swivel stud is protruding into the channel far enough to hit the barrel and if if is, use a dremmel tool to grind off enough to recess it. Then apply a couple of good coats of Truoil or other stock finish to seal the channel.

As previously stated, if the barrel touches the stock, it must do so evenly. Try the rifle and see if it shoots. If not, you may want to glass bed the action, which is not too difficult but may be best left to a gunsmith.

Most rifles will shoot well w/freefloated barrels, but have see a few that required a slight pressure on the barrel at the end of the stock. If yours does not shoot satisfactory floated, try putting a business card between barrel and stock (add layers until it takes approximately 5 lbs. of pressure to separate the stock/barrel and shoot a group. If this increases accuracy you can add a glass pad in lieu of the bus. card.

If I liked the rifle, I'd buy it and then worry about fine tuning, after all, that's half the fun of getting a new toy.

Regards,
hps

 

[DesertRat]

Thanks guys,

Actually, I was well aware of the vibrations caused by bullets as they pass down the length of the barrel and some of the related physics. Also, while I did know some about glass bedding a rifle, I must admit I was quite ignorant of the nuts and bolts of free floated bolt guns and this being my first large caliber bolt gun, I wasn't sure what to think. My only other point of reference was an old Marlin .22 magnum bolt gun I've had since I was 12.

Further, while I realized barrels will flex with enough pressure, I found myself rather taken aback at how little pressure is required to cause a barrel "bend" while affixed to a stock.

Considering I don't know to what degree the action is bolted to this stock, I'm becoming suspicious of just how tightly the barreled action is screwed down to the stock. I do intend to purchase this rifle and if its not quite right, I will make it so.

Last, I'm surprised to hear from you guys about how some recent production synthetic stocks display such a great degree of flex. I'll make a point to check out half a dozen of so various makes of synthetic stocked rifles and report back my findings. Each of you have been helpful. Thank you.

 

[swifter]

Barrel flex or action flex. Since it seems to be a sporter weight pipe, likely the barrel.
Try: 2 3x5 cards instead of a dollar bill. Then slip them down the barrel channel while the rifle is horizontal, again when its vertical
Had a friend with a untapered barrel in a Sako singleshot action.
Could pass 3 layers of cardstock down the channel when it was vertical, one would bind when it was horizontal...
The action flexed that much. Didn't shoot worth a damn, either...
Tom