Milsurp Investment

I would say some US stuff does. If you start looking at G43, G41, SVT's you are likely to find those costing about the same or quite a bit more over a run of the mill 'merican Garand or 03. Same goes for 98k's, even the RC's are getting pretty darn lofty and in some cases costing more....for a non capture the prices have (at least around here) passed the american and british bolt guns.

Also remember not everything is equal....an IBM or Un-Quality m1 carbine is going to for very different numbers even in like condition....same goes for about everything.

Also remember be very leery of anything that is "numbers matching" yea it happens, but think about it....these are guns used in a war...they have things bust....do you really think the armorer is looking for the right part from the right company to get it back in the hands of the gun on the line....nope. And many got worked over sometime after the war.

Again all this goes to research....you have to really know this inside and out before you pay big $$$$ to someone for something that is really to be special....make sure it is special.

It partially depends on the price you pay, the condition, and what you do with them. They're a better investment than just about any other hobby or toy. Go buy a 4 wheeler, horse, TV, set of golf clubs, etc and try and recoup you initial investment 10 years down the road - Good Luck!

I have a hard time believing SKS’s will triple in price again and go from $400 to $1,200. You can get a real nice new rifle for $1,200. When Milsurps were common and coming over by the boat load they had to discount them in order to move them. Now they have stabilized to prices that are closer to the average used rifle market. Unless the whole used rifle market shifts dramatically I can’t see the prices changing significantly. Same with the Mosin’s and other common items. They aren’t making them anymore but they still have to compete with the rifles that are being made to today and there are some pretty good rifles being made today in the $400 to $600 range.

They are over time. For moreso than any commercial hunting rifle. Supply went to nothing while the demand persists. And there's stuff you cannot buy for any price now. Mostly due to government interference. Depends on what it is as well. To make any money on something like a Polish PA-63 or Hungarian marked Mauser, you'd have to find somebody who wants it in whatever it's current condition is.
Paid $175Cdn for both my M1 Rifle and '03A4, 35 plus years ago. Bit less for the 2 Lee-Enfields. All of 'em have increased in value well over 100%. Ditto for the assorted bayonets and other accessories.
However, pay scales were much lower 35 years ago and the cost of living was much lower as well. $175 was more money than it is now. Still more than a week's pay then. All those ads everybody keeps posting don't mean much without taking pay scales into consideration.
"...CMP being genuine US surplus and worth more..." More about the stuff that's been made "correct" by people with too much time and money not being worth more. The value of a CMP rifle is that you know it's safe to shoot and is usually in the condition they say it's in.

I do believe it is a good market. Most of my "shooters" are milsurps, that I traded with my late friend many years ago. The firearms I have shoot very well and I have hunted with them, except for my Swedish Mauser's. Those I saved for last as I have admired them so much, even though they are sporters. I recently bought a Weatherby Vanguard VGX .30-06, on my 45th birthday, at tad over a year ago. I still have to sight that in too.

But yes, they are a good investment.

Good deals are still out there.
I just picked up this Brazilian 1908 Mauser the other week for $200.



I will Be retiring in three years. My plan is to let my kids pick the guns they want and then sell off a hundred or so.

Depends on what you buy, and when. Buy as they are being imported, and you'll get a low price. Once the supply runs out, the price will double. CMP Garands are always good, they are being sold at the low end of resale.

GunnyUSMC said:

Here is tip. A lot of true Collectors would rather sell one of their guns to another Collector that will care for the gun for years to come. Most often you will get a better bargain from the true Collector.

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Wise words, Gunny. I AM one of those collectors and I once refused to sell a pristine Remington Model 81 in 300 Savage to a person who wanted to refinish the stock. I would have made a handsome profit too. I have a lot of high conditioned milsurps and I will not sell one to anyone I think might alter it in any way.

There are better investments than shooter grade milsurps. Very high conditioned milsurps are another story. I am talking 95% of higher. Yes, they are really expensive to obtain. And shooting them lowers their value, but they can appreciate with astonishing speed. I live twenty minutes from Rock Island Auction Co and I have every catalog from the last twenty years. It is eye opening to see how the various models of milsurps have skyrocketed in price during that time. Winchester 97 trench guns were going for 1-2000 bucks a few years back are going for 5-6000 today. Last year a 1911; #31, first WEEK production, 95% set a world record. It sold for $98,000

I know that is an extreme example, us poor peons will never have the money to get into THAT market, but consider this. over 20 years ago RIA CO. sold a Singer 1911A1 for less than $10,000, if memory serves me correctly. Same gun today (literally, guy that originally bought it must have died) went for $35,000.

Most of us can only dream of playing in that high stakes game. I guess it is true that "It takes money to make money"

Surplus guns will at some point run out. Every surplus firearm that I thought would be around forever cheaply, well weren't. Only the AK's may drop in price, every thing else is finite and goes away.

fpgt72:
I'm not qualified to answer your overall question.

But you Have read that the Phillippines might return a huge number of M-1 Garands (via the DoD) to the CMP?
I've not read about the rifles' conditions, but it would be interesting to see the flippers of CMP Garands at gun shows if those Phillippines M-1s are acquired by the CMP, and IF most are equivalent to Field or Service Grade.

All of my milsurps are worth more than what I paid for them, but that isn't the reason I bought them. However, if I had access to a time machine, I would buy a truck load of Webley revolvers when the price was $19.99 as per the ads in the back of the American Rifleman.

I would go for the $79 lugers and the $99.95 Garands.

Ignition Override said:

fpgt72:
I'm not qualified to answer your overall question.

But you Have read that the Phillippines might return a huge number of M-1 Garands (via the DoD) to the CMP?
I've not read about the rifles' conditions, but it would be interesting to see the flippers of CMP Garands at gun shows if those Phillippines M-1s are acquired by the CMP, and IF most are equivalent to Field or Service Grade.

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The flippers really drive me nutz, and in this day and age just how do they make sales. Everyone has a phone....guess they pray of the uneducated....we all started somewhere.

I love gun shows....I don't buy stuff very often, but I love to people watch. Once and a while there is a guy there with 3 tables of M1's.....none under $1500. Went with my buddy once and he said how he would love to have one but just could not afford voer 1000 for a garand. I said let me know and we will make a road trip to alabama....think that is closer then ohio....(and I said this LOUD) we could pick up a cmp rifle where all these came from for less then half of these guys asking prices. I tell you if looks could kill....but hay I am an a__ h___ some times....and some people deserve it.

I will also agree If you buy from a guy that is a collector you are going to get a better price....I have had them tell me so. I bought a M1 carbine BB gun....they made them in the '60's The guys price was $400....a bit steep...but not out of line for the shape of the gun...I tell my wife about the gun, its history, but I just can't swing the 400....the guy comes over and says you know what this is, and what it stands for....I know you will care for it...would you go $150 for it....he offered that price....I bought the gun It is a crosman m1 carbine and in fantastic, box new shape...there is a kids name on the magazine....what history....and the guy is correct. Bought my MAS36 for a good price from a collector.

If you really want to get into this find the "collector" groups in your area....they are a pretty incestuous group....meaning they are very closed and very tight and they swap stuff back and fourth and really help eachother out.....hunt that group down...every bigger city has one....find them and doors will open....if they think you are a real collector.

And don't be worried that most of these guys are stodgy old farts.....many of us (being a stodgy old fart myself) are really excited to see a "kid" come in and be interested in preserving history.

Stationary Smell said:

Do you guys think military surplus firearms are a good investment?...

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"Good" as in safe and will potentially provide a decent return when sold?

In general, if you hold them, un-bubba'd, for at least a decade, I think yes.

Stationary Smell said:

Do you guys think military surplus firearms are a good investment? I understand there might be some Garands coming back to the states... but I'm talking surplus firearms as a whole. Over the last year I've acquired a few surplus rifles (an sks, a few Mosin Nagants, Hungarian Mauser, M95 Steyr Mannlicher, Polish PA-63, ect.) and I'm curious if you think firearms like these might be decent as an investment... or maybe I should sell a few?

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I think the thing is that you will have to wait an awfully long time to see any appreciable pay-back for your investment. I would buy these for the love of history, or guns but not to make money.....

One problem? Don't assume that a family member (spouse etc) will be able/Know how to sell them for more than a third what they are worth. Or have the time: i.e. "Can you text me photos of them"? ..for ten different guns. "Oh, are they illegal to own in your state? Sorry...I won't ship". "Why not?" My wife was already widowed about 25 years ago. She doesn't need that b.s. with squirrely, insincere nitwits.

You could die or be incapacitated next week after acquiring two or three Garands as an M-1 collection. Only one of my family members has any guns, but no M-1s.
If I died etc next week, out of my dozen (+) guns, nobody in my family would have any real interest in the guns. They would sell almost all of them for cash

Imagine how much strangers would do their best to take advantage of my wife when it's so obvious that she has no idea what they are.
My son is not interested.

Start a simple excel sheet.

Have photos, sn# photos, costs, value...stuff like that...this way the people know the value of the stuff.

I wanted to add....it is also handy for insurance...if you have a rider for your gunz and stuffs, I have a dvd sitting in the safe deposit box....this way if a tornado eats the house I have a document with photos...good photos on just what I had, and what I paid as well as current-ish market prices.

I paid $119.00 for a beautiful Swedish Mauser about 20 years ago from Big 5, $200 for a new in the wrapper unissued late 1950's Enfield. They are worth far more today and will not get cheaper anytime soon. The only risk to gun ownership and collecting is socialism and leftists. Remembering who not to vote for is as important as your choices for the collection.

https://www.easterninsurance.com/insurance-quotes/personal-insurance/historic-firearms

These guys offer insurance if your homeowners is not covering you well enough.

I've found that it's a very good idea to distinguish between "investments" and hobbies.

Collecting milsurps is a fun hobby, I've got a whole bunch of them. As a general rule they seem to pretty much keep up with inflation.

On the other hand, my investments have allowed me to provide a higher education for my children, nice homes and cars for my family, an early retirement, and the ability to indulge in my MANY hobbies!

Don't forget to fund your 401(k).

Recognize that your heirs probably may not appreciate what you have, and might just sell them for pennies on the dollar.

This has been touched on before, but "investments" are supposed to be liquid, and are meant to be bought and sold. Gun collections, not so much. A lot of collectors never plan on selling, and would happily go to their graves with their guns. Paper gains remain theoretical only, until and unless you actually sell. Then your heirs are left to sort everything out.

In a way, this makes sense. If you're sitting on a huge paper gain, say, in a gun collection, if you sell while alive you will be taxed on the capital gain. If you wait until you die, your heirs will get a "stepped up basis" (to FMV at the date of death) and will be able to sell with no recognized gain. But for this to work, they have to be aware of the values and of ways to liquidate a collection without being taken by unscrupulous buyers.

The whole "investment" rationale for gun collecting smacks of a pretext, and a way of justifying your purchases to your loved ones. Bottom line: a gun collection is not an "investment" although it may fortuitously turn out to be one.

AlexanderA said:

This has been touched on before, but "investments" are supposed to be liquid, and are meant to be bought and sold. Gun collections, not so much. A lot of collectors never plan on selling, and would happily go to their graves with their guns. Paper gains remain theoretical only, until and unless you actually sell. Then your heirs are left to sort everything out.

In a way, this makes sense. If you're sitting on a huge paper gain, say, in a gun collection, if you sell while alive you will be taxed on the capital gain. If you wait until you die, your heirs will get a "stepped up basis" (to FMV at the date of death) and will be able to sell with no recognized gain. But for this to work, they have to be aware of the values and of ways to liquidate a collection without being taken by unscrupulous buyers.

The whole "investment" rationale for gun collecting smacks of a pretext, and a way of justifying your purchases to your loved ones. Bottom line: a gun collection is not an "investment" although it may fortuitously turn out to be one.

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Now there's a stark realization that many here won't agree with. I have a few relics but they aren't "investments". My investments are in the stock market. If I died tomorrow that could be turned into cash by my wife in a few days without too much trouble. She actually ask me to dispose of all of the guns when I reach 75. I'll probably do that except maybe one or two. Might do it sooner. My only problem is figuring out how to spend 12K after I sell. Maybe we'll go to Australia, never been there.

Compared with a lot of hobbies such as basketweaving, pottery, paintings, model airplanes or railroading, guns have more of a chance to break even. However, as an investment, to minimize risk, you need a mixed strategy--stocks, bonds, reits, even gold and silver. The problem is that the more mixed your strategy is, the lower the overall yield because you are sacrificing yields for security during downturns. Diversification usually produces a more stable but lower return. Same as betting on the favorite in a horse race to place or show versus the long shot to win.

Then there is the problem with management fees, transaction costs, etc. The truth is that the most liquid of assets are also those that can have a major down or upside risk--stocks could easily drop or increase significantly because it generally predicts economic conditions months in advance.

Collecting, just like Cabbage Patch dolls, art. etc. runs the risk of fads where the early folks make the money and the rest get average to negative returns. Same as the high end collecting of firearms or machine guns, legal changes or alternative asset appreciation such as interest rate spikes generally cause money to flow out of collectibles and into financial instruments. Low interest rates result in a lot of people seeking higher yields and suffering more market risk to get it. And so on.

Guns do have one advantage, during times of troubles, demand skyrockets faster than supply so to some extent, it is countercyclical to general economic conditions.

If you want to maximize yield in collecting, then you best treat it like a job--eg. Kenny Roger's the Gambler song, "know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, and know when to run---"

Just keep in mind that if instead of buying one of those $89.95 SKSs back in the mid- to late-1980s, they had put the money into a garden variety mutual fund (averaging a return of about 5.5%) it would today be worth approximately $500 - about what those SKSs are going for (or maybe a little more) without the hassle of storing them, cleaning them or trying to find buyers for them when you want to liquidate.

At 8%, that same initial investment is worth more than $1,000.

Someone might come across something extraordinary, like a prototype for the San Cristobal that the museum in Santo Domingo just has to have for their collection, and make a killing. But if all we're just talking about is riding changes in market value, a closetful of ex-military rifles is a poor investment.