Homeowner shot confronting intruder in NH- how could this have been different?

FWIW, there is an interesting website, http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ , that catalogs media-reported shootings. Interestingly, it has a searchable database and goes back several years. You can filter for things like "shot in home" or "defensive gun use" or killed/wounded/uninjured results. It's not perfect, in that it relies mostly upon next-day local news stories and the coding is less than perfect, but you can manage to find stories of people in homes successfully defending themselves (often not in a bedroom) and, less frequently, getting killed while attempting to defend themselves. It's not a good enough database to allow any kind of statistical use, but one can get a sense about whether certain kinds of events are common, rare, or essentially non-existent.

Ironically, I think the creators/maintainers of the website are anti-gun, but I frequently use their database to illustrate to anti-gun friends/colleagues that guns are successfully used to resist violent crime basically every single day in America.

As to the specific question, yes, it's possible to be killed while attempting to "clear" your own house. It's also possible to be killed while waiting in your bedroom (asleep or awake), and it is definitely possible to hear a noise that might be a burglar that isn't. That happens very, very frequently.

Kleanbore said:

No one maintains statistics on the details of civilian armed confrontations ,except to some extent in Tennessee.

We have seen accounts of civilians succcessfully defending themselves, with little about persons searching their homes.

Of course, the stories that have bad endings do not make their way into "The Armed Citizen".

The best way to do that is to refer you to the numerous threads here about how FOF simulations most often end with the hunters being "killed" by the hunted.

Click to expand...

That was all kind of my point. There isn't data out there supporting either claim, so it's silly to claim that an average homeowner who searches his or her own home when a burglary is suspected is likely to die if they confront someone.

The huge majority of home burglaries happen in the daytime when no one is home.

When anyone attempts or forces entry into an occupied home at night, odds are high that they are chemically impaired. And even then even a simple vocal challenge will cause them to flee. Even the slightest hint that the homeowner might be armed will almost always result in panicked flight. Anyone who stays after that can be presumed to have little or no judgement and to be a true threat to life.

In more than ten years on the street I saw many many cases where "Who the hell is in my living room?" was more than enough to send the intruder howling in fear into the night. I saw a dozen or more cases where armed homeowners either captured and held or shot intruders. I never saw a case where the armed homeowner was injured or killed.

I think people are overthinking this. The huge majority of burglars aren't going to even try to break in if they know someone is home, and if challenged will almost always run away. The individual in the original story made a serious mistake in initiating a verbal and physical challenge without being armed. Had he been the outcome would have very likely been much more favorable.

Bottom line is you don't need SWAT training to defend your home. Most criminals are abject cowards who will run away at even the slightest hint that the homeowner is armed and ready to act in self defense.

ATLDave said:

I want to get this straight. Your answer is "go back to sleep" because going downstairs where there might be an intruder is too dangerous? Remarkable

Click to expand...

No, that isn't what I said... but why break an uninterrupted streak of just making stuff up?

Geesh, planning on making an honest post today?

ATLDave said:

As for the false dilemma fallacy, I don't think that's remotely applicable.

Click to expand...

When someone asks a question and intentionally skews all options, other than their preferred answer, in a negative light.... that is exactly the definition of a False Dilemma Fallacy.

ATLDave said:

Your argument reminds me of the argument against CC that goes like this: "If I thought I was headed someplace so dangerous I needed a gun, I wouldn't go to that place!" Well, sure, if you know you're going to need a gun, sure, skip it. What if you're just 99.9% sure you won't? Don't go? Stay at home from everywhere?

Click to expand...

How is that in any way applicable to me saying that an ambush is always better than a meeting engagement?

bassjam said:

That is EXACTLY what you said. See below.

Click to expand...

I said that in relation to a known intruder, not in relation to a bump in the night. Stop trying to make those two different concepts the same thing.

bassjam said:

Please provide statistics on the likely hood of someone searching their own home getting killed. I've seen the "Armed Citizens" in the NRA mags where 90 year old men (and women) search their own home with a gun and "get the bad guy". Prove to me those are anomalies, and that most people who do this die.

Click to expand...

Yet again perfectly confirming that you have never had any sort of proper training in this sort of thing. If you had, you wouldn't be asking me to prove that the homeowner is at a disadvantage over the intruder.

If you had any sort of training, you guys wouldn't stop using the two story house example and coming down stairs to search. That's just cringe worthy. Every one who has ever had this sort of training or experience knows that oh hell no, I'm not clearing down a staircase without smoke or flashbangs to cover me down the stairs. F that. I mean, have you guys even spent a second considering the tactical considerations involved in moving down a staircase? What is the armed invader going to see first, your weapon or your ankles? Do you like your ankles? Apparently not, because you guys are awfully excited to be gong down those stairs to find Mr. Intruder.

mbok1947 said:

Bottom line is you don't need SWAT training to defend your home. Most criminals are abject cowards who will run away at even the slightest hint that the homeowner is armed and ready to act in self defense.

Click to expand...

Which do you think is safer for the homeowner, to go find the intruder to yell at him that you are armed, or to do so from a safe, defensible location while on the phone with the police?

Click', you keep insisting that I'm offering false choices and cartoonish mischaracterizations of your position... and then you say something exactly equivalent.

If someone hears a bump and cannot know whether it is an intruder or not, do they go investigate or not? If the answer is no, then how many times per year are they going to have the police kick down their door? Maybe you're just deaf and don't hear things very often.

And as to "flashbangs"* and whatnot... you seem to be equating going down the stairs in your own house to perhaps encounter a burglar (who will likely have fled upon hearing footsteps, if he existed at all) with storming an enemy fortress held by people seeking to ambush you.

For what it's worth, and to relieve your worries, my staircase is a two-flight design with a wall between the flights. I can look over the top of the wall at the bottom of the staircase, and the muzzle of the gun would be the first thing an intruder got; you can quit worrying about the health of my ankles.

In the end, your advice is unworkable and absurd. You cannot barricade yourself every time you hear a noise, unless you choose to simply ignore all noises. Your advice assumes a level of knowledge/certainty on the part of the resident that is not available in most circumstances except in retrospect. (And, no, most people don't have comprehensive, infallible security systems with no blind spots and no false alarms.)

* Something that police routinely do without in searching buildings.

Klean', I don't know how applicable results from simulations wherein a person is sent into a strange environment up against an assailant who has been instructed to ambush are to a homeowner who is already in their own home looking to see whether there is a person who is likely high, stupid, or panicked in their house.

I would ask you the same thing: What would you have the person who heard a noise but it pretty sure it is not an intruder do? Go back to sleep despite the doubt? Call the cops to kick down their door and search... for the amazon package that was on the edge of the dining room table and fell off when the train went by?

I'm familiar with those threads and ideas. If think the problem is this: "If there is a chance that the house has been entered..."

I think you and I may have different understandings of what "a chance" means. I'm talking about the (common) case where an owner/resident is pretty darn sure there's nobody there. Not the cases where they are pretty sure there is someone there.

If I hear intruders downstairs in my house and I'm pretty sure of that, I'm definitely having my wife call the cops while I retrieve my daughter, then waiting at the top of the stairs (around a blind corner for anyone coming up) and announcing that the cops have been called, and the intruders can either leave, wait for the cops downstairs, or come upstairs to die.

OK, I feel like you're dodging the uncertainty. Let's put some numbers on it.

Let's say the homeowner is 95% sure that it was "nothing," but 5% worried that it might be something. What action?

Because he/she has to get up and go to work in the morning. After 15 minutes of waiting, still don't go downstairs just to end all doubt? If it's too dangerous to go downstairs in 15 minutes, isn't it too dangerous to go to sleep?

There is a possible big problem calling 911. When the police do arrive can they get in through a busted in door? Any PO with a brain is not going to climb and crawl through a window with the possibility that one or more armed badguys might be inside start shooting as they are half in half out. Net result? They are going to tell you to come outside. So now what are you going to do? If they do enter the house the badguy(s) might be driven in your location direction. Any shooting starts and you are your family might have "goodguy" bullets coming through your door and stud walls as well.

To see what made the noise and confirm that, yes, the doors are all still locked, windows un-broken. And what's the harm? After all, you're about to go back to sleep, right?

I was once told the only way to have a civil discussion is to truly try to understand the others persons position.

You do that by civilly asking questions for clarity, and answering questions in a clear way and not by attacking, exaggerating, and putting words in each other's mouth. It's easy to see you guys are not understanding one another.

I really wish you guys would do that, it would be productive and could help those like myself who are truly open to suggestions on this topic. I admit my plan is no plan, get my gun and light then find out what that was can't be ideal. But it's what I'd do, and I never really feel comfortable doing it. But I've never heard a idea that was realisticly better.

Jason_W said:

(why do exterior doors always open inward?)

Click to expand...

Which is why if you have any outward opening doors in your house, like a garage door, the hinge pin should be modified to prevent someone from removing them with a Phillips and a hammer.

ClickClickD'oh said:

If you had any sort of training, you guys wouldn't stop using the two story house example and coming down stairs to search. That's just cringe worthy. Every one who has ever had this sort of training or experience knows that oh hell no, I'm not clearing down a staircase without smoke or flashbangs to cover me down the stairs. F that. I mean, have you guys even spent a second considering the tactical considerations involved in moving down a staircase? What is the armed invader going to see first, your weapon or your ankles? Do you like your ankles? Apparently not, because you guys are awfully excited to be gong down those stairs to find Mr. Intruder.



Which do you think is safer for the homeowner, to go find the intruder to yell at him that you are armed, or to do so from a safe, defensible location while on the phone with the police?

Click to expand...

Who said anything about a second story? I live in a ranch. If there's an intruder in my home, he's only a handful of steps from my bedroom. What's worse, is the master bedroom is at the end of the hallway, meaning my kids in their bedrooms are in more danger than my wife and I are. F THAT! Stop making assumptions, every situation is not the same. For me to try to barricade myself and my kids anywhere, I've got to walk through a hallway that is 100% visible to the living room, dining room, and main bathroom to get to the kids, so I've already exposed myself (and the kids) to 90% of my home just in trying to get everyone into a defensible position.

I'm going to take my chances on going on the offensive first, and believe it's 100% stupid NOT to do so. My wife on the other hand can round up the kids while I'm doing my best to protect them.

Maybe you live in a home where you can easily barricade your family on the second floor without risking your family's lives. Not all homes are not like yours.

A little four legged burglar alarm is better than a moat unless the moat is stocked with crappie...

Coop45 said:

A little four legged burglar alarm is better than a moat unless the moat is stocked with crappie...

Click to expand...

I have 2 4 legged alarms, one better than the other. One TOO good as she thinks anything she can hear, see or smell is in her area of watch, regardless of lot lines or roads.

Dogs go ballistic I do not have the "turtle and wait" option as my son sleeps downstairs. That said I never check out "bumps" (usually the cats) without the dog, .45 and flashlight. Dogs will let me know if I need the .45, flashlight is to see what the heck the cats knocked over this time.

Coop45 said:

A little four legged burglar alarm is better than a moat unless the moat is stocked with crappie...

Click to expand...

My 4 legged alarms sleep in the basement. My golden couldn't stand the idea of my wife sleeping next to me so he always snuck in-between us at night. For some reason my wife took offense to that and banned him to the basement along with the mutt.

The good thing is my garage and basement are connected, so I know my tools are safe.

scaatylobo said:

AGAIN = you do NOT go "searching & CLEARING" your house ---- or any building without ALL the proper tools and TRAINING.
Looks oh so easy in the movies and on the boob tube .
NO WAY that 99% would live through a real scenario without holes in them.
IF a perp wants to harm you.
NOW,please do tell me all about how you know better = this man paid that price.

Click to expand...

This. My plan is to protect my family. I wouldn't clear it. I have and alarm and a spot picked out with cover to fire from if they approach the bedrooms.

My house is in a position where it is totally visible on all sides in the open. The only way anyone would come it is at night. I do have lighting all around the property and I hope that keeps someone from even thinking about trying to come in.