You cannot gift a gun or even hand it off with Universal Background checks

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Tirod

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As discussed in another thread, someone was being gifted a gun - but he lived out of state. Reading Federal regulations, posters explained that he couldn't take possession and return home without shipping it thru an FFL to keep it.

It was a transfer to an out of state resident and Federal law requires handling thru an FFL. For even receiving it as a gift from another family member.

This is exactly what the Universal Background Check will do - and impose the same penalties for you if you hand a firearm to your wife, son, or daughter, who are living under your roof. In it's worst case application, if you toss an extra handgun to another family member while defending against intruders who are ransacking your home, even shooting at you, then you will be violating Federal Law and subject to prosecution.

It's not about crime, it's about making guns as difficult as possible to transfer. Even facing lethal force. The anti gun proponents would just as soon see you dead - since you like guns at all - rather than shoot the intruder. It's not your job to resist, that according to them is carved out and specially set aside to LEO's as being the only ones to exercise lethal force under the law. Not you.

Now, watch the allies of Universal Background Checks chime in about how it's ok. Even working in one state where it's been implemented. Regardless of how it's not founded on any Constitutional principle, and in a country where we know for an absolute fact that it will be taken too far, where government demonstrates it does need to be held in check.

Our founding fathers already knew this hundreds of years ago and it's why they fashioned the Constitution and government they way they did.

I suppose we can come up with all sorts of silly speculative scenarios about it, the basic fact is that with Universal Background checks, you can't even loan a hunting rifle to your family without an FFL transfer. Much less your BUG defending them in a firefight. There is no guarantee that Universal Background checks will include a special provision for it, at all. That is pollyanna thinking of the lowest political order.

After all, we already have, in writing, in the Federal Code, that your uncle who lives out of state cannot gift you a firearm without it passing thru FFL's to your home state. And for you to pick it up - paying the FFL's fee - you have to fill out a 4473.

You will be the documented owner of that gun under Universal Background Checks no matter what. Or, you will be the legally determined criminal trafficker who sidestepped the procedure and subject to jail time on conviction for it.

Happy with Universal Background now? We already have the interstate version of it, all it will do is apply it to the distance between your hand and someone else standing next to you.

The government would even intrude on your date night just because you heard a footstep outside. And some - even here - are ok with that.
 
As discussed in another thread, someone was being gifted a gun - but he lived out of state. Reading Federal regulations, posters explained that he couldn't take possession and return home without shipping it thru an FFL to keep it.

It was a transfer to an out of state resident and Federal law requires handling thru an FFL. For even receiving it as a gift from another family member.

This is exactly what the Universal Background Check will do - and impose the same penalties for you if you hand a firearm to your wife, son, or daughter, who are living under your roof. In it's worst case application, if you toss an extra handgun to another family member while defending against intruders who are ransacking your home, even shooting at you, then you will be violating Federal Law and subject to prosecution.

The problem is, this isn't necessarily true, and it isn't necessarily false...it depends on how the law is written.

Your basing that statement on assumptions that may or may not be in the law.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of universal background checks, I'm opposed it in every fashion. BUT that doesn't mean we can say thing as fact that may not be so.
 
There is a lot of speculation and assumptions about what the UBC system would look like in the original post, but beyond that..

The question should be a simple one. Do you believe before someone takes possession of a firearm it should be verified they are not prohibited from doing so? I personally believe it should be verified. Many will say "well, if someone is out of jail then they've served their time and they should be able to own a gun", and I fundamentally disagree, we do not currently have a justice system that puts and keeps everyone that deserves to be in prison there. It's a revolving door with incredibly high recidivism. The idea that if I walk in the store I have to fill out paperwork to buy a gun but I can just buy that same gun out of some guys trunk no questions asked in the parking lot is illogical. The only possible argument is that their should be no checks ever for anyone....which I am sure some of you believe.

Do background checks keep guns out of bad guys hands? Of course not, they'll always find a way eventually. But does it keep some guns out of the hands of some people that shouldn't have them, or at the very least inconvenience/delay them from acquiring them? Absolutely.

Between November 30, 1998 and May 31, 2016, the NICS denied 1,323,172 transactions. The top reasons for denials include: "Convicted of a crime punishable by more than one year or a misdemeanor punishable by more than two years", "Fugitive from Justice", "Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence Conviction" and "Unlawful User/Addicted to a Controlled Substance"

Now I understand there would be an added cost associated with this. You now have to involve FFLs when you transfer, and those prices can range from $10 to $50 or more. But when you increase the demand for a service you'd see more and more options pop up and more competition between dealers. Hell, there's plenty of kitchen table FFLs right now, can you imagine how many there would be if they'd have pretty much guaranteed steady business? And the more options there are the more reasonable the pricing would be.

I'll go ahead and prepare for the flaming I am about to receive.
 
The problem is, this isn't necessarily true, and it isn't necessarily false...it depends on how the law is written.

Your basing that statement on assumptions that may or may not be in the law.
He's basing it on 50+ years of gun control history.

Of course it's abundantly clear that sham "universal background checks" have the REAL purpose of immediately bringing about registration or greasing the skids for it through planned failure. In either case, the ultimate goal is facilitation of confiscation.

If you're assuming a benign motive, you're not paying attention.
 
There is a lot of speculation and assumptions about what the UBC system would look like in the original post, but beyond that.
If the other side TELLS you what they want to do, it's not "speculation".

Sham "universal background checks" are nothing but a stalking horse for registration, without which they're UTTERLY meaningless. Registration is NOTHING but a means to facilitate confiscation.

"Australian style gun control" is the REAL goal.
 
If it's SO important to keep convicted felons from owning firearms, why isn't it equally important to prevent them from owning the two things that make EVERY criminal's life easier: the automobile and the cell phone?

Shouldn't there be a criminal background check for cars and phones? Shouldn't disposable phones be banned?

The Soviet Union required internal passports and tied people's residences to their area of employment. Contemporary North Korea enforces similar controls. Wouldn't THAT have prevented Hodgekinson from traveling to Virginia?
 
He's basing it on 50+ years of gun control history.

Of course it's abundantly clear that sham "universal background checks" have the REAL purpose of immediately bringing about registration or greasing the skids for it through planned failure. In either case, the ultimate goal is facilitation of confiscation.

If you're assuming a benign motive, you're not paying attention.
I agree with you, all I am saying is we shouldn't assume to know the effects of a law, when the law doesn't exist. We shouldn't say what UBC will look like because we don't know. I'm not assuming anything, I'm just petitioning everyone else to not assume anything either.
 
We got a UBC here a few years ago. As far as I know there has been only one person facing prosecution two years after I-594 went into effect.

http://www.king5.com/news/investiga...ground-check-initiative-became-law_/337141858

That tells me that it isn't a huge issue for LE. The only reason this one case came up was it was discovered during a murder investigation. My feeling is unless the police are investigating some other crime it just won't get much attention.

That's not to say that I agree with it. I voted against I-594. The main reason is I recognized it for what it was, nothing more than a feel good law that won't have any effect on shootings. A large number of sheriffs in WA said the same thing but nobody listened. They know that private transfers are way down on the list of where criminals get guns. Mostly the guns they use are stolen or purchased legally. Now the truth is out there, it has zero effect on shootings. The latest shooting in VA is a good example of that.

Authorities also confirm Hodgkinson legally purchased a 9 mm handgun and an assault-style rifle from licensed firearms sellers.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/15/the-latest-congressional-womens-team-hits-practice/

I don't think we will ever see a federal UBC. If anyone is interested in doing some research in the states that have one, like WA, they would see it has zero effect on shootings.

If a carry permit were recognized to forego a UBC I wouldn't have a problem, but in this state they aren't. Another problem we have here is our law was written by a group of AG folks (initiative) to be intentionally vague (18 pages) and onerous. One of the reasons LEO's don't pay much attention to it.

Again, it depends on how it's written and what exemptions are in place. A federal UBC isn't a good idea. If a state wants to legislate one it has no effect on me and they should be able to handle their affairs as they see fit.
 
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If it's SO important to keep convicted felons from owning firearms, why isn't it equally important to prevent them from owning the two things that make EVERY criminal's life easier: the automobile and the cell phone?

Shouldn't there be a criminal background check for cars and phones? Shouldn't disposable phones be banned?

The Soviet Union required internal passports and tied people's residences to their area of employment. Contemporary North Korea enforces similar controls. Wouldn't THAT have prevented Hodgekinson from traveling to Virginia?


If convicted felons are such a danger they should not be released.
Period.
I'll await the excuse makers.


"Shall not be infringed".
These words were not a suggestion.
 
If convicted felons are such a danger they should not be released.
Period.
I'll await the excuse makers.
The reply:

"You can't 'give up on youths' merely because they herd the night crew at the local McDonald's into the back room and shoot them in the back of the head, execution style."
 
If convicted felons are such a danger they should not be released.
Period.
I'll await the excuse makers.

And no one would disagree with this. Unfortunately that's not the way the system works and dangerous criminals are released all the time, and the vast majority re-offend. It's a revolving door.
 
I agree with you, all I am saying is we shouldn't assume to know the effects of a law, when the law doesn't exist. We shouldn't say what UBC will look like because we don't know. I'm not assuming anything, I'm just petitioning everyone else to not assume anything either.
When it comes to invidiously racist gun controls, ALWAYS assume the WORST... then don't be surprised when it's worse than that.
 
The reply:

"You can't 'give up on youths' merely because they herd the night crew at the local McDonald's into the back room and shoot them in the back of the head, execution style."


Lol
And I am all for it...as long as they are "no longer a threat".
If they are a threat, then keeping then out of society is not "giving up".
Releasing them to their own devices would be "giving up".
The problem, as always, is people not doing their job.
 
That's where we differ, I don't consider getting a NICS check punishment.
It's most certainly a punishment for NON-criminals. It imposes restrictions on NON-criminals (along with facilitating future oppression), KNOWING that it won't in ANY way affect criminals.

But over and over and over, the proponents of invidiously racist gun controls make VERY clear that their REAL animosity is directed at NON-criminal gun owners. Hence the Obama "Justice" Department's REFUSAL to prosecute illegal purchases by prohibited persons coupled with their facilitation of the transfer of thousands of firearms to KNOWN criminals in Mexico.
 
When it comes to invidiously racist gun controls, ALWAYS assume the WORST... then don't be surprised when it's worse than that.

If someone does that to me they lose all credibility. Your/our arguments need to based in facts, not in emotional assumptions. If you want to be taken seriously. And right now their is no currently proposed law (that I know of) to base the facts on.

When their is, then we can easily discredit the law....based on facts, assuming we still have credibility.
 
And no one would disagree with this. Unfortunately that's not the way the system works and dangerous criminals are released all the time, and the vast majority re-offend. It's a revolving door.
Exactly. So how is your lovely idea that even more regulation of law abiding citizens going to close the revolving door for criminals? Not going to happen. Keep on dreaming that new laws will stop criminals. That's not going to happen either. Don't penalize the law abiding.
 
If someone does that to me they lose all credibility. Your/our arguments need to based in facts, not in emotional assumptions. If you want to be taken seriously. And right now their is no currently proposed law (that I know of) to base the facts on.

When their is, then we can easily discredit the law....based on facts, assuming we still have credibility.
I just watch my opponents' past behavior and current statements. THEY want the maximum pain for NON-criminal gun owners. They SAY so... to each other. Tell me why I should disbelieve them.

This is like watching a guy run over a bunch of people with a truck, then leap out and start cutting throats while screaming, "Allahu akhbar!" and "This is for ISIS!", and then saying to yourself, "Gee, I wonder what his motivation was..."
 
Exactly. So how is your lovely idea that even more regulation of law abiding citizens going to close the revolving door for criminals? Not going to happen. Keep on dreaming that new laws will stop criminals. That's not going to happen either. Don't penalize the law abiding.

That logic doesn't work. By definition criminals don't obey laws, so using your example we shouldn't have any laws because they're just going to ignore them anyway right? These gun laws in reality aren't about prevention they are about punishment after the fact.
 
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