How did they carry their ammunition?

I believe the original cartridge poxes had wood inserts hollowed out for the individual paper cartridges, and the caps with a spare were in the box also, with a cord that cut the paper wrapper when pulled.

I dont know if it was common to carry them in the military pistol cartridge box on the belt, the ones that were rounded on the bottom with the stud fastener for the flap, or if some may have carried them in vest pockets. I dont think pants pockets were common at that time, and not likely tight jeans (by their standards) in any event.

Edit: I just looked them up, they also had rectangular cartridge boxes also (for the belt), they looked like a better fir for the paper cartridge boxes.

Would a working rancher/cowboy even have access to the extremely fragile prefabricated combustible cartridges? My guess is that the reload, if carried at all, consisted of a powder flask, pouch of balls, and a tin of caps carried wherever convinient.

Walmart may have carried them at the time.

I find it difficult to imagine not taking ammunition to reload your guns. Flask and loose balls isnt really that bad for time if one is accustomed to it. They had no shyness about loading directly from the flask. Cappers werent uncommon, I believe they were issue at some point for revolvers, and commercial or surplus ones would be about after the War.

The transition from the single shot pistol to the repeaters happened in one life time. Folks making that transition would have continued to carry powder and ball in the same manner as they always did, I would think. The fore runner of the back pack, a simple pouch on a shoulder strap would be my guess. When was the concept of preloading powder and ball into paper sleeves first introduced, not with the Colt Paterson in 1838 I'd wager.

Non military they would have a shooting bag.

whughett said:

The transition from the single shot pistol to the repeaters happened in one life time. Folks making that transition would have continued to carry powder and ball in the same manner as they always did, I would think. The fore runner of the back pack, a simple pouch on a shoulder strap would be my guess. When was the concept of preloading powder and ball into paper sleeves first introduced, not with the Colt Paterson in 1838 I'd wager.

Click to expand...

I agree, non military would have likely still used a shooting bag of some sort.

They had paper cartridges in use during the Revolutionary war for the smoothbore muskets and pistols.

This would be a possibility...
http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/military-accoutrements/leather/cap-and-cartridge-boxes/22317

Others would be the M1860 Carbine Cartrige box (with the block taken out) or and M1864 Cartridge box, though that one is a bit bulky. IIRC, land forces were not issued cartridge cases specifically for pistols, but the Navy did so. Were I an NCO or Officer, I would have picked up cylinders on the battlefield, and kept them in a cartridge box or such. Particularly if I were issued an 1858 Remington.

entropy said:

This would be a possibility...
http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/military-accoutrements/leather/cap-and-cartridge-boxes/22317

Others would be the M1860 Carbine Cartrige box (with the block taken out) or and M1864 Cartridge box, though that one is a bit bulky. IIRC, land forces were not issued cartridge cases specifically for pistols, but the Navy did so. Were I an NCO or Officer, I would have picked up cylinders on the battlefield, and kept them in a cartridge box or such. Particularly if I were issued an 1858 Remington.

Click to expand...

And you would have had to file and hand fit each cylinder so that they would work in your gun.

Good thing I'm a gunsmith, then.
Seriously, most men had such skills back then.

FWIW - Jan. 18, 1859, U.S. Patent No. 22,675: “Method of Packing Cartridges”, E.K. Root; March 15, 1859, U.S. Patent No. 23,230, “Packing Cartridges”, Samuel Colt.

I have no specific information, but find it difficult to believe that only the Navy would have had belt cartridge boxes for their belts. The link in post No 2 has many variations of US issue belt cartridge boxes. Some of the pictures may have historical info, I didnt look at the descriptions of very many.

Im also not convinced that it was an either/or situation, paper cartridges or flask and loose balls ammunition. The paper cartridges are handy and quick, but were normally made with conical bullets. Keiths writing mentioned some old Civil War vets he was acquainted with that mentioned the difference between conical bullets and round balls in the Navy Colts, and their performance in their intended role. It makes more sense to have both types available, it time permits, reloading with loose ammunition may have been preferred by some, and in case pre-made supplies ran out, the loose ammo still works.

Id be interested if anyone has actual historical information from the period on civilian vs military use of pistols and how they commonly carried spare loads (in a general sense, hopefully not single source/individual use), We can guess and surmise all day long, but sometimes the actual practices arent what we think.

I contemplated becoming a re-enactor, as the ancestor I am named for was a Sgt. in the 2nd MN Volunteer Light Artillery, and there is a re-enactment unit of them based in Red Wing, MN. While doing historical research for the part (which I ended up not doing, due to time commitment issues), and going over their equipment list, I did not find an Army issue pistol caliber cartridge box. The caps, of course were kept in the cap box on the belt, but the powder flask was kept in the knapsack, as the need to reload the pistol was not considered urgent by the Army.The pistol was use to extricate the officer or NCO from actual battle, so he could continue his mission, command. The Navy's use of a pistol cartridge box was a holdover from the single shot pistols, as a sailor on watch was usually handed two pistols and the box at the beginning of his watch, and handed them off to the next one. You'd have time to reload single shot pistols with paper cartridges after having fired at a boarding party below in a dinghy. Thing happened slowly in the sail and wood hull Navy.

Did you happen to look at the link?

Yes, I did. Many of those items shown were modern, and not reproductions. The ones that appear to be issue, are the ones I mentioned, the Carbine Cartridge case, the M1864 Musket Cartridge box, The USN Pistol Cartridge box, or CS and Militia copies thereof. I have not found an authentic US Army issue pistol cartridge box. You'd think if there were one, there'd be some still left to collect.

I


I carry my 'makins' in this leather belt pouch.

"...the concept of preloading powder and ball into paper sleeves..." Long before the American Rebellion. British Army was biting paper cartridges and spitting bullets since long before the Brown Bess arrived in 1722.
"...working rancher/cowboy even have access to..." The rancher, yes. The cowboy only if the rancher issued 'em. Mind you, a lot would depend on how far into the Boonies the ranch was. Plus how much money the rancher had. Cheaper to buy a keg of powder and some lead than a box of cartridges.
"...sailor on watch was usually handed two pistols..." Depends on what he was watching and in whose service he was. No tar heel in the RN would be trusted enough to be given a pistol. Far too expensive and ranker sailors were mostly impressed. As in drafted without choice. Wouldn't be armed at any time while at sea either. Unless an enemy or pirate ship was spotted and boarding was possible. Then it'd only be a cutlass. Real Marines dealt with everything else.

Crawdad1 said:

So the patent date is 1859 was that the first packaged paper cartridges offered to civilians?

Click to expand...

Colt began experimenting with foil wrapped cartridges at Paterson. By 1839, he felt confident enough to offer sample waterproof tinfoil cartridges to the U.S. government. In 1840 a board of dragoon officers tested and recommended the use of the cartridges for the service. The same year the Secretary of War ordered from Colt 150,000 musket and 100,000 rifle cartridges for delivery to the Army in Florida. Apparently later considered unserviceable, 162,000 tinfoil cartridges were broken up at the New York Ordnance Depot.
In March, 1851, Colt sought to patent the foil cartridges. The U.S. Patent Office denied the application. “Cartridges have long since been made of very thin leaf sheet metal” the Patent Office wrote, citing various French references. In 1855 Colt partnered with W.T. Eley of London to obtain a British patent for the tinfoil cartridge and its protective envelope.
Sam Colt’s Hartford cartridge works began operation in July, 1855. In1858, the cartridges were changed to the paper wrappings more familiar today. -
“The Colt Cartridge Works”, Terry A. White, The Gun Report, February 1993.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=2753.0;wap2

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=374128

http://www.jarnaginco.com/reenactor leather care article.pdf

The first of the cartridge weapons were for the civilian market, not the army. The '73Winchester was the weapon the 44/40 was designed for, as an example.

for the Single Action Army, that was an army comission, thus, 45 cause the army says so.

The cartridge .44 (44/40) has a heavier recoil than the cap an ball 44. The cap and ball 44 is some 120 grains at 1000fps. Although, it was common for civilians to use a .44 conical round of about 180 grains. The 44/40 normally is 240 grains at ca 950pfs meaning twice the felt recoil.

But the issue was the common round for the pistol and the winchester.

Civilians more commonly did not buy the latest and greatest because after the civil war, surplus army guns were way cheaper than current state of the art. In civilian practice, the big non surplus sellers were so called "saturday night specials" which were small guns usually 22 or 32 rimfire.


Time line Guns in America

http://www.range365.com/history-us-army-sidearms#page-6

Sunray said:

"...the concept of preloading powder and ball into paper sleeves..." Long before the American Rebellion. British Army was biting paper cartridges and spitting bullets since long before the Brown Bess arrived in 1722.
"...working rancher/cowboy even have access to..." The rancher, yes. The cowboy only if the rancher issued 'em. Mind you, a lot would depend on how far into the Boonies the ranch was. Plus how much money the rancher had. Cheaper to buy a keg of powder and some lead than a box of cartridges.
"...sailor on watch was usually handed two pistols..." Depends on what he was watching and in whose service he was. No tar heel in the RN would be trusted enough to be given a pistol. Far too expensive and ranker sailors were mostly impressed. As in drafted without choice. Wouldn't be armed at any time while at sea either. Unless an enemy or pirate ship was spotted and boarding was possible. Then it'd only be a cutlass. Real Marines dealt with everything else.

Click to expand...

I meant USN during the Civil War. I don't know how far back it went, probably not the Revolutionary War, as the USN impressed sailors too, at that time. This was info I learned while considering re-enacting, supported by a quick google search to refresh my memory. You are right, no way anyone under a middie would touch a pistol in the RN back then.

Below is taken from:
http://www.civilwarhome.com/capballrevolver.html
Interesting read on carrying multiple revolvers (4+) per person / cavalryman.

Seems, high capacity was as big as an issue back then as it is now.

"Officers like partisan leader John Singleton Mosby believed the revolver was the ideal cavalryman's weapon. Countering the opinions of officers who argued that a saber was "always loaded," Mosby believed edged weapons were "of no use against gunpowder." Mosby's men, who favored the .44 Colt Model 1860 Army above all other revolvers, found rapid-fire handguns ideal for close range surprise charges on supply wagons or Federal patrols. James J. Williamson, one of Mosby's men, remembered that: "with us the fighting was mostly at close quarters and the revolver was then used with deadly effect." Many Yanks agreed with Mosby. A Federal officer wrote that his regiment "had never yet drawn the saber in a charge, and never would charge with anything but pistols."
Perhaps the most significant devotees of the six-gun during the Civil War were the irregular warriors of the Border States. In contrast to Mosby, whose men were enlisted in a recognized unit which had had a clear military purpose and value, Kentucky, Missouri and Arkansas guerillas, whether they professed loyalty to the Union or the Confederacy, were often little better than bandits - a trade many adopted as a postwar career. Like Mosby, however, the guerillas found six-guns ideal for ambushes, where a blizzard of bullets rapidly delivered at close range negated the range advantage of rifle-muskets or breech loading single shot carbines.
Men who relied on the revolver as a primary weapon often carried a number of them. Many of Mosby's troopers holstered two handguns on their belts and another two on their saddles. Rebel guerillas in Missouri outdid the Virginia partisans and often carried as many as five six-guns. In September, 1864, Federal soldiers in Missouri "killed six of ["Bloody Bill"] Anderson's gang, taking from their bodies 30 revolvers." Bloody Bill himself met his end shortly afterward, and the Yankees removed "four revolvers, two watches, and about $500 in gold and greenbacks" from his body. When another bushwacker, Bill Stewart, was killed by cattleman W. H. Busford, who he was attempting to rob: "four revolvers were taken from his person."

New York Times article on the killing of Bill Stewart by Cattleman W. H. Busford:
http://www.nytimes.com/1864/11/27/news/death-of-a-noted-guerrilla.html?mcubz=1

Yes, long before it was called the "New York Reload" the preferred way of carrying "spare" ammo was in additional revolvers.

Lots of folks here on the BP area like the "Avenging Angel" cut down C&B revolvers. Rockwell and his comrades were well known for carrying multiple revolvers, both the Avenging Angels in coat pockets and belt guns as well as guns on a saddle. Likely did not take long after the invention of firearms for folks to realize that the best way to keep a reload was in a second, third, or whatever gun.

I believe that most non uniformed folks that carried a hand gun back then, AS IS SO TODAY AWAY FROM THE INTERNET, carried only what was in the gun with the rest in storage some place dry and secure.

-kBob