6.5 Grendel here for the long haul or destined to fade

Fade

I wouldn't recommend the Grendel for your application. Hunting in California circa 2019 will require lead free bullets, and the Grendel just does not have enough powder to launch a high BC copper bullet at the velocities required for good expansion. I'd buy a 243, 6.5 CM, or 270 if I were in your situation.

My ballistic calculator says that a 120 grain ttsx with BC of 0.412 fired at 2400 fps drops below 2200 fps around 100 yards (Barnes book max is 2500 fps out of a 24" barrel). You can get 2200 fps out to 220 yards if you get the 100 grain ttsx (BC of 0.359) to 2750 fps muzzle velocity (Barnes listed max is 2850 fps out of a 24" barrel).

As to the staying power of the Grendel, it's already more popular than most of the cartridges for which brass is available, so I wouldn't expect component availability to be an issue anytime soon.

A

Corn-Picker said:

I wouldn't recommend the Grendel for your application. Hunting in California circa 2019 will require lead free bullets, and the Grendel just does not have enough powder to launch a high BC copper bullet at the velocities required for good expansion. I'd buy a 243, 6.5 CM, or 270 if I were in your situation.

My ballistic calculator says that a 120 grain ttsx with BC of 0.412 fired at 2400 fps drops below 2200 fps around 100 yards (Barnes book max is 2500 fps out of a 24" barrel). You can get 2200 fps out to 220 yards if you get the 100 grain ttsx (BC of 0.359) to 2750 fps muzzle velocity (Barnes listed max is 2850 fps out of a 24" barrel).

As to the staying power of the Grendel, it's already more popular than most of the cartridges for which brass is available, so I wouldn't expect component availability to be an issue anytime soon.

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Agreed, the mono bullets need all the speed they can get.
I drive 100gr noslers to almost 2800, and 123s to 2500 from a 20" barrel, and performance is excellent. The same weight mono would probably want in excess of 3000-3100fps.

If your just plinking, dont know what the rules would be. The Grendel will do that very well with a host of cheap/ish bullets. Case supply shouldn't be an issue, the base case is x39 so there will be a supply even if the Gren managed to offend everyone and get dumped. I dont see the Grendel going away anytime soon tho. With more non AR rifles being chambered for it its likely to build an even better reputation as light to light/med game cartridge.

As I recall, the Grendel has been around for almost 30 years but for the handloader and the guys who were/are looking for the next great thing. It's just become a SAAMI thing recently. Will it ever replace the .223 ?? Probably never but for those of us who can use lead bullets to hunt with, we can probably find a niche and apply it successfully. The same with the 6.8 which seems to be falling into obscurity.
kwg

Don't shoot 120 gr bullets. A 100 gr copper TTSX will out penetrate 140 gr lead bullets. And at 2700+ fps at the muzzle will still give 2200 fps out to 200 yards. You'd be over 2000 fps out to 300 yards. Most people feel 2000 fps is about the minimum impact speed for copper with 2200 being ideal. That'll kill stuff just fine.

The same with the 6.8 which seems to be falling into obscurity.

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A bit more that a few years ago the 6.8 SPC was the "hot" alternate AR caliber, now its the .300Blk and 6.5 Grendel to a much lessor extent, ignoring the .45 "thumpers". It didn't help that there was an SPC and SPC II which made the original SPC buyers feel like red-headed step-children and confused people enough to likely defer purchases long enough to see them start to fade.

wally said:

now its the .300Blk and 6.5 Grendel to a much lessor extent,.

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Interesting to note that it's hard to find more diametrically-opposite cartridges in terms of their intended use and strengths.

Nine flavours of 6.5 ammo at Midway. 31 types of 6.5 Creedmoor.
Doesn't need to be a high BC to kill Bambi. A Barnes 120 grain TTSX BT / TAC-TX BT, .412 BC, at 2100ish to 2500ish FPS will do nicely. Bambi isn't armoured. In any case, the Ballistic Coefficient means very little.

OTOH, a high BC is quite nice for long-range target shooting. Fitting as much long-range potential into an AR-15 platform as will fit is what the 6.5 grendel is all about.

Fitting as much long-range potential into an AR-15 platform as will fit is what the 6.5 grendel is all about.

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True, but if you are serious about long range (500+ yards) shooting its worth stepping up to the AR-10 platform, or a bolt action if you are really serious about it.

wally said:

True, but if you are serious about long range (500+ yards) shooting its worth stepping up to the AR-10 platform, or a bolt action if you are really serious about it.

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And if you are REALLY serious about long range (500+ yards) shooting, it's worth having a PRACTICE RIFLE chambered in a low recoil cartridge which only eats 25-30grn powder to get you to 1,000yrds and has great barrel life, and only pull out your primary rifle when you want to get really serious about it... A 6.5 Grendel AR-15 or bolt gun (depending how closely you want to match your primary, and whether your primary is in a chassis or a stock) is a great option as a mid to long range practice rifle.

I don't think the Grendel is going anywhere for a long, long time. I have AR's in 6.8 and 6.5, among others, I think the 6.8 has more options right now, but I think it will fade, if it ever does, faster than the Grendel - and frankly, I don't think either of them are leaving any time soon. Long range shooters will keep the Grendel alive, which is an advantage is has over the 6.8. We've already seen the 6.8spc pick back up a little of what it lost to the 300blk, as guys realized how much the 300 drops at short ranges, whereas the 6.8spc has staying power for longer range shooting and hunting.

The TTSX's penetrate well, because they either don't open, or they shed their petals (violent expansion) and then the shank penetrates like ball ammo. They're a great killing bullet, don't get me wrong, but they don't kill like any bonded or cup and core bullet out there when you actually dissect the wound tracts.

I've always thought the 6.5 Grendel was a pretty cool cartridge, even though I've never had one. It's one of those things that has always been on "the list" but there has always been that one other gun that I wanted more. I think it has potential to fill the roll of a lightweight DMR type rifle, something a little handier and soft shooting than the 308, but a step up from the 223/5.56.

Varminterror, you make a good point about the barrel life and component cost. What kind of an optic are you running on your 6.5 grendel?

6.5G is doing very well since the cheap steel case Wolf ammo became available. Not sure how long the steel case will stay at low price while other 6.5G ammo are expensive. If another cheap ammo source become available, I would say 6.5G will stay for a long time. On the other hand, if cheap 6.8 ammo shows in the market, many folks would opt to 6.8. Majority of us don't shoot long range and won't see the slight advantage of 6.5G at long distance with a longer barrel. Bigger hole is easier to see and better 6.8/270 bullet choices for hunters. For now, I am happy with my 223, 300BLK, 7.62x39 and 308 ARs. Got my cheap 6.5 Hornady 100 gr bullets from Midway during the weekend, maybe cheap brass can be found soon, then I will be ready for 6.5G! Also, keep in mind that 6.5G is based off 7.62x39 and 7.62x39 in AR leaves a thinner bolt head and break faster. The .135" bolt head definitely helps extractor, but no so the bolt.

SPC was developed for a specific military contract, when then resulted in a large batch of ammo being produced, which resulted in a large overrun of Lake City production, which resulted in affordable ammo for a while. My understanding is this effort has not been renewed in light of .mil's newfound love of 300BO (spec ops procurement seems like the ultimate "ooh, squirrel!" type of customer as far as their small arms wants) and therefore 6.8SPC shall remain in its fairly obscure market position as a somewhat expensive, specialized chambering, the way Grendel was until recently. I think the Saudis are the only force using it in significant quantities at this point (maybe). 6.8 has the same fatal flaw as Grendel; the AR15 platform's narrow/short magazine well, so it suffers similar magazine-related issues (namely, no polymers in standard magwells), but military development meant they spent more time debugging that aspect than has been given to Grendel.

Grendel on the other hand, is the result of over a decade's steady development and gradual gain in marketshare, and though its performance largely overlaps SPC, its design goals were much broader; intermediate cartridge that hits about as hard as 308 at extreme ranges with good accuracy, has a similar ballistic profile out to that point, yet still retains the bulk of short-range utility as a carbine round (couple dozen capacity, fairly light ammo, good SBR performance, works in short-action AR15s). Basically an alternative to 308 for small arms roles. SPC was primarily about getting better SBR performance without sacrificing range, or at least was sold/marketed that way. Rather than being sustained by a one-time contract demand, there are now a couple militaries in Eastern Europe & Russia looking hard at widespread issue of the round, and as a result we have access to inexpensive steel case FMJ ammunition; though not in keeping with the 'accuracy' goals of the round, it is still surprisingly respectable, and far more appealing to the civilian shooter set looking to take a chance on the round.

Previously Grendel builds required expensive 6.5 barrel blanks (were made in few quantities before Creedmoor became so popular) and very obscure reamers & bolt heads, and these parts were mainly accessible through higher-end retailers like Alexander Arms/etc. The persistent focus on accuracy aspects of the round in marketing branded it as a more upscale and expensive option, not unlike 6.8 SPC. But with the arrival of 'plinking' ammo from Wolf, suddenly it seems that everyone & their brother is offering 6.5 uppers at very competitive prices considering what you get (even a cheap Wolf upper at $400 or so has nearly the capability of a full-on AR10 for everything besides close-in hunting ranges that 308 is still considerably more powerful for, and weighs about the same as an AR15). I remember a year or so ago, the cheapest 6.5 barrel blank from Green Mountain was over 100$; now it is less than half that because of the volume being produced (6.8 has stayed steady at the slightly higher 60$ pricepoint for the most part).

I think the only thing that could realistically stop Grendel at this point is shutting off the flow of steel-case ammo; even in that case, it will continue to be made overseas and eventually wind up here decades later like the other Soviet rounds. The option of plinking ammo at prices SPC could only dream of was truly the ignition for the current Grendel craze. I also think that although SPC remains a possible contender for the planned military service round changeover, Grendel has a better position (it hasn't been written off already like the SPC project, and it has nearly the same case-head diameter as 308/Creedmoor, so if one were designing a single multi-role rifle capable of accepting mid-length and short-length action cartridges/magazines, Grendel is capable of doing so with fewer parts).

TCB

Please don't accuse me of being a shill for Primary Arms, but they are having some nice Email special sales going on now. Radical Firearms (excuse me for promoting Houston area businesses as we try to get our economy going again) 6.5 Grendel complete 24" barreled uppers for $430

http://www.primaryarms.com/cfu24-6-...LOT_4&utm_campaign=17_09_Ad_05_Flashbang_Sale

Very close on performance between 6.8 spec ii and 6.5 Rendell to about 500 yds. The 6.8 has more ammo choices for hunting, grendel has cheap wolf ammo. 6.8 does better in short barrels while 6.5 grendel outshines 6.8 on long barrels and so forth. I went with a 6.8 upper build after going back and forth. Might build a grendel upper in the future though and the .22 nosler looks pretty good too. That is the virtue of the ar platform. Building a switch barrel Mauser is a bit more difficult.

kayak-man said:

Varminterror, you make a good point about the barrel life and component cost. What kind of an optic are you running on your 6.5 grendel?

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One wears a Leupold VX-3i 4.5-14x50mm, the other wears a Vortex Viper HSLR 6-24x50mm FFP - but this rifle is in the process of being sold to one of my rifle course students. Both of mine are meant for long range shooting and coyote/deer hunting. These rifles are built to reach out beyond the useful killing range of the .223/5.56. My current 6.8 has two optic options sighted for it, a 2.5-16x50mm bushnell Elite 6500 for hunting/long range shooting, the other a bushnell AR 3-9x40mm (cheap junk) which it only wears when the 2.5-16x is mounted on one of its sister uppers in 204R or 5.56. This 6.8 was also built with longer range work in mind, but has an 18" mid length instead of a 20" rifle length barrel, so it carries and balances very differently. Not as stable on long shots, and much faster off hand.

A guy has to get past 800yrds before there's really much difference in the dope cards for either of my 6.8 or 6.5.

While none of @barnbwt's history lesson above is incorrect, it's a pretty jaded and narrow view of both the 6.8 and the 6.5, and largely not pertinent for the reasons most of us buy one or the other.

Guys aren't buying either of these cartridges looking for a 5.56, we buy them because they are NOT the 5.56, so nobody really cares it costs more to buy or reload 6.8 or 6.5 than does 5.56/.223. If a guy wants to make noise, buy a 5.56, if a guy wants to hunt or shoot long range, flip a coin between the two, neither is a bad answer. Brass is readily available for both, at very reasonable prices for the case size, Lapua even makes Grendel brass. Hornady 6.8 brass is readily available and is very consistent, as is their 6.5 Grendel brass, and I have gotten good brass life with both cartridges from them (annealing every 3rd).

Factory hunting grade ammo is available for both, and match grade ammo is available for the Grendel readily. Hunting component bullets are available for both, relatively inexpensive bullets are available for both. More match bullets are available in 120 class 6.5, but there are enough in .277" to keep a guy well fed.

Again, while none of that history isn't true, none of it really matters for those of us shooting the rounds for anything except low cost blasting, and again - neither is a good cartridge for that application compared to the 5.56 anyway.

the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. and maybe 1-1.5 lbs of weight. eastbank.

Odd balls seem to have better staying power these days, more so if they work in an AR platform. That said, just get piles of the brass in the round you do want.

I'm sure glad I did that back in the 80's with 7mm BR but then I knew that a round designed for one single shot bolt action pistol wasn't going to have a lot of staying power, despite it being a fine round.

Varminator, my point is Grendel is growing now because the steel case imports give them access to the same 'low cost blasting crowd' as what made 223 so popular (it was not that popular until Iraq War overruns in the post-AWB years made it much cheaper). When ammo is expensive, there is more incentive for each person to choose the most optimum solution for their individual needs/preferrence, which leads to a lot of diversity. When cost is low, it is easy for more people to settle around a single good enough choice, especially when none stand out for any other reason (6.8 & 6.5 are practically identical in almost every way, from commonly used range, to barrel life, to the parts needed for a conversion --the steel case Grendel is the real X factor, and given time, will encourage more budget ammo makers to compete at that price point to ensure the round continues to grow in popularity). There's a half dozen identical 6.x rounds for the AR15, but only one has cheap steel case, a variety of commerical brass case, multiple sources of brass, a wide weight selection of bullets, powders, dies, barrel makers at all price levels, etc.

My guess is the Grendel will be around for a long time. If I had any doubts I'd just buy a bunch more brass.
As mentioned in other posts, it is a very efficient round capable shooting out to 1000 yards.
Cheap steel case ammo is a plus. I rarely buy factory ammo but 23 cents a round for wolf steel case is to cheap to pass.
The performance I get from a 16 inch AR really tempts me to build a bolt gun for the round.

jmorris said:

Odd balls seem to have better staying power these days, more so if they work in an AR platform. That said, just get piles of the brass in the round you do want.

I'm sure glad I did that back in the 80's with 7mm BR but then I knew that a round designed for one single shot bolt action pistol wasn't going to have a lot of staying power, despite it being a fine round.

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The internet made it easier to find ammunition, brass, firearms, information, loading recipes, etc. for these oddball calibers at a more reasonable price. The AR platform allows you to build uppers at a lower cost than buying another rifle and accurizing it. It has taken the place from the Remington 700 series and to some extent the Savage Model 10 bolt systems to allow easy rechambering into a firearm for a specific purpose. Plus, the great ammo shortages of the 90's and 2008-16 led a lot of people to learn and acquire the skills to reload.