Trapdoor load

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Reeferman

Reeferman

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I’m using a start load at 27 grains H4198 with a 405 bullet in my Springfield Trapdoor. It’s the lowest pressure load in Hodgdon load data. I loaded a few but haven’t been able to get out to try them yet.
Anyone else using this powder?

I have to quit trying to do two things at the same time and proof read before hitting send.
Fat fingers.
 
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27 grains of what? 27 of some powders wouldn't even pull the bullet out of the case, 27 of others will have you combing iron out of your whiskers.
 
I have two trap doors, an 1873 and an 1884 that I shoot almost weekly. The load I use is a Missouri 405 coated bullet over 28 grains of H4198. This is a mild load that approximates the original black powder load. This load is quite accurate and will not stress the rifle or lead the barrel. Be advised that the lowest setting for the original sights is about 200 yds and this will cause the rifle to shoot quite high at 100 yds. The solution is to fabricate a much taller front sight and then file it down to where you need it to hit. I have gotten mine to shoot quite well at 100 yds. 3 inch groups are fairly easy.
 
crest117 said:
I have two trap doors, an 1873 and an 1884 that I shoot almost weekly. The load I use is a Missouri 405 coated bullet over 28 grains of H4198. This is a mild load that approximates the original black powder load. This load is quite accurate and will not stress the rifle or lead the barrel. Be advised that the lowest setting for the original sights is about 200 yds and this will cause the rifle to shoot quite high at 100 yds. The solution is to fabricate a much taller front sight and then file it down to where you need it to hit. I have gotten mine to shoot quite well at 100 yds. 3 inch groups are fairly easy.
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Thanks for the reply. Mine is a 1873 and I cast some Lee 405 hollowbase and then coated them. I have seen lots of other smokeless powder being used but not much H4198. I know about the sights but I don’t think I will change it for now just want to see what it will do as is with the 4198.
 
Good luck Reeferman. Trapdoors are great fun to shoot and always attract attention at the range. The 405 grn bullet is the best to use. I tried H4895 powder but the 28 grns of H4198 was suggested by several members of this board and does work far better. Again let me mention that you will shoot quite high at 100 yds.
 
For a long time I used nothing other than 4198 in my Trapdoor loads. Then I found AA5744 and changed over to it and it's my current powder.

My favorite H4198 load is a charge of 32.0gr under a 405gr cast bullet.

A very accurate Trapdoor load is 29.0gr AA5744 under the same bullet. It's my current Trapdoor 45-70 load.

A factory 45-70 duplicate load supplied by Handloader Magazine is 38.5gr IMR3031 w/405gr cast bullet.

The above recipes were loaded with a CCI-200 primer and a 405gr cast bullet from both Remington and the MBC. I have also used Winchester LR primers and several other plain base 405gr cast bullets.

I hope this helps a bit.
 
Archangelcd, Hodgdon, the manufacturer of H4198 recommends between 27 and 31 grns for the 405 bullet. Your load of 32 grns is probably safe for most trapdoors but a bit on the hot side. The original trapdoor rifle load was 70 grns of black powder and gave a velocity of 1300 - 1350 FPS. Hodgdon says 27 grns of H4198 will give about 1250 FPS while a load of 31 grns will give about 1460 FPS. The load I use, 28 grns is a bit on the mild side but gives good accuracy and is easy on my old shoulder. Remember, these guns are almost 145 years old and many did not have the best of care in their early years. Enjoy shooting these old timers.
 
crest117 said:
Archangelcd, Hodgdon, the manufacturer of H4198 recommends between 27 and 31 grns for the 405 bullet. Your load of 32 grns is probably safe for most trapdoors but a bit on the hot side. The original trapdoor rifle load was 70 grns of black powder and gave a velocity of 1300 - 1350 FPS. Hodgdon says 27 grns of H4198 will give about 1250 FPS while a load of 31 grns will give about 1460 FPS. The load I use, 28 grns is a bit on the mild side but gives good accuracy and is easy on my old shoulder. Remember, these guns are almost 145 years old and many did not have the best of care in their early years. Enjoy shooting these old timers.
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I own and shoot an original Trapdoor rifle and I know they are old. There are many sources of data and not all agree on the max TD pressures. You referenced the data by velocity which doesn't give accurate pressure data. You can not guess velocity by what the manuals claim. That load is not hot in the least.

I got that load from the Lyman manual and they state all their max TD loads are below 18,000 CUP. They list 35.0gr IMR4198 as the max, I quoted a charge of 32.0gr, well below 18,000 CUP. The Hodgdon data stopped at 17,100 CUP with H4198 but in the same section supplied data with pressures as high as 25,600 CUP.

I'm not sure why Hodgdon went so light with H4198 but the load I quoted is not over pressure even according to the lesser of the acceptable max TD pressure limits. Of course you should only do what you feel is safe.
 
I'm an IMR guy, so I've used IMR4198 under 350's and 405's in my 1895. My loading data is out in NV right now, I'm in TX, so I don't have access to my records. Also, as Arch suggests, A5744 is supposed to be the Final Solution for the .45-70, particularly with BP-level loads; I have a can of it, but I've sold my 1895 since. I'll have to wait to get my High Wall to continue with it and see. I've also used IMR3031 with good results, too.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
That is a shame because you would really like the results. I hate it when you want to buy a powder and it's not available locally. It happens to me with Accurate and Ramshot powders!
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It was the first smokeless powder I considered. I know many use Trailboss but looking at the pressure of only 12 grains it just doesn’t seem ok to me. All of the powders listed on Hodgdons sight are available here but H4198 made the most sense.
 
Have you considered Unique, 2400, or IMR4227? I don't know what the pressures on those are, but they are common for BP replacement loads with the 405grn bullet.
 
I have a Guide Gun and H&R Handi Rifle in 45-70. I use 3031 for hotter loads and Trail Boss for my BP equivalent range ammo. Neither of my loads are enough to bother my shoulder.:)
 
Charlie98 said:
Have you considered Unique, 2400, or IMR4227? I don't know what the pressures on those are, but they are common for BP replacement loads with the 405grn bullet.
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I see some have used them but going to stick with H4198 for now.
 
Reeferman said:
It was the first smokeless powder I considered. I know many use Trailboss but looking at the pressure of only 12 grains it just doesn’t seem ok to me. All of the powders listed on Hodgdons sight are available here but H4198 made the most sense.
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I agree H4198 is a good choice from the Hodgdon catalog and would still use it if I ran out of AA5744.

I'm not a fan of Trailboss because it is not what most loaders think it is. It is not a low pressure generating powder. If you look on the Hodgdon load data for Trapdoor 45-70 loads with a 405gr cast bullet Trailboss generates the highest pressure of all the powders listed while delivering the lowest velocity. It is also known to spike pressures under some circumstances.

Hodgdon claims Trailboss is the replacement for the now discontinued IMR SR4759. IMO it doesn't even come close to doing that!
 
Just a peripheral suggestion, in my 1884 Trapdoor, I used Lee hollowbased 405gr RN alox lubed bullets with 11.0 gr of Unique without fillers or wads. Gentle on the Trapdoor. 1000 FPS chronographed velocity. Best 5 shot group at 100 yards 0.9” but usually 2.5 to 3” groups. Good for the grandkids. (Pressure with 420 gr bullet and 11gr Unique 16,800 CUP Lyman 47 edition)

Blackhorn 209 with their website loads is fun for a more authentic Smokey experience with easier clean up than true black powder.
 
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LouB said:
Just a peripheral suggestion, in my 1884 Trapdoor, I used Lee hollowbased 405gr RN alox lubed bullets with 11.0 gr of Unique without fillers or wads. Gentle on the Trapdoor. 1000 FPS chronographed velocity. Best 5 shot group at 100 yards 0.9” but usually 2.5 to 3” groups. Good for the grandkids. (Pressure with 420 gr bullet and 11gr Unique 16,800 CUP Lyman 47 edition)

Blackhorn 209 with their website loads is fun for a more authentic Smokey experience with easier clean up than true black powder.
Click to expand...
 
The trouble with loading 45-70 with small amounts of Unique is that it is too easy to make a mistake and double or even triple charge. This has been known to happen and will cause the destruction of the trapdoor and possibly the shooter. Powders that make it impossible to double charge, or at least make a double charge obvious, are safer.
 
I use Lee's 459-405-HB over 70gr of GOEX in my 1888 Springfield TD. This gives great accuracy at 300 yds and was much better than any government loads I purchased. The downside is it requires the messy clean up but IMO worth it.
 
After what I went through to get a 136 years worth of crap out of the barrel which looks almost brand new now I’m a bit hesitant shooting black powder though it seems accuracy is much better with black powder.
 
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Take a look at Paul Mathews book. He has a lot to say about the Springfield trapdoors. Worked for me. BP isn't all the horrors the smokeless world portrays.
 
daboone said:
Take a look at Paul Mathews book. He has a lot to say about the Springfield trapdoors. Worked for me. BP isn't all the horrors the smokeless world portrays.
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I know I used to have a smokestack back in the 70’s. But these days it’s just one more irritation I don’t need but probably will to see how well this trapdoor will shoot.
 
Reeferman said:
I know I used to have a smokestack back in the 70’s. But these days it’s just one more irritation I don’t need but probably will to see how well this trapdoor will shoot.
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AA5744, 4198, 3031, 4895, Unique, 2400 and a bunch more will all work without using Black Powder. Nothing wrong with BP unless you don't want to use it.
 
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