.45-70 leading threshold?

[3Crows]

I know this is a multi-faceted question. I have (bunches) some H4198 and a bunch of MBC 405 grain HCL bullets, I have mostly been loading the bullets for plinking level loads using Trail Boss at 900 to 1,000 FPS and light 1,200 FPS "hunting" loads. These MBC bullets are not gas checked. Using the various data, I see loads for 405 gr HCL bullets with 27 to 31 grains of the H4198. Looks to give about 1,400 FPS at 30 grains. I am shooting a Guide Gun so the actual velocity will probably be less.

The question comes back, am I on the threshold of needing gas checks with 30 grains of H4198, how fast can I send a HCL bullet of good size match to my rifle before I begin to see excessive leading? Any thoughts. I would rather ask now than clean Pb from my barrel later.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I know this is a multi-faceted question. I have (bunches) some H4198 and a bunch of MBC 405 grain HCL bullets, I have mostly been loading the bullets for plinking level loads using Trail Boss at 900 to 1,000 FPS and light 1,200 FPS "hunting" loads. These MBC bullets are not gas checked. Using the various data, I see loads for 405 gr HCL bullets with 27 to 31 grains of the H4198. Looks to give about 1,400 FPS at 30 grains. I am shooting a Guide Gun so the actual velocity will probably be less.

The question comes back, am I on the threshold of needing gas checks with 30 grains of H4198, how fast can I send a HCL bullet of good size match to my rifle before I begin to see excessive leading? Any thoughts. I would rather ask now than clean Pb from my barrel later.

I like to clean my 45-70 with a copper jacket bullet... kindda flushing it out

 

[Telum Pisces]

Kind of hard to give an exact answer other than you'd have to try it to see where you have problems.

But, I know for me and my 45-70 Henry 18" barrel, if I start pushing HCL bullets too fast, accuracy goes out the window pretty fast before I start leading my barrel. My bullets will start to tumble like crazy if I push them too fast.

 

[3Crows]

Kind of hard to give an exact answer other than you'd have to try it to see where you have problems.

But, I know for me and my 45-70 Henry 18" barrel, if I start pushing HCL bullets too fast, accuracy goes out the window pretty fast before I start leading my barrel. My bullets will start to tumble like crazy if I push them too fast.

I have shot many of the HSM "Cowboy" loads which run about 1,300 FPS advertised, about 1,250 from my GG. I have not noted any significant leading that a general cleaning does not take care of. So, I am trying to step up just the next increment to about 1,400/1,450 FPS, no more than that.

My rifle is very accurate with both HSM Cowboy, HSM Bear 430 grain and my Trail Boss loads sometimes clover leafing at 100 yards and quite often at 50 yards. It is just a poor old Remlin though, the ones that do not shoot very good, lol.

 

[Charlie98]

Although my experience is with IMR4198, it should be close enough for your H4198.

I load most of my cast in .45-70 to around 1400fps and don't have problems with leading. I load .30 cast (in .308 and .30-30) even higher without problems, this using commercially cast bullets. As always, good bullet to bore fit is essential, but generically a gas check is recommended for cast going over 1500fps.

30grn IMR4198 and a 405grn cast bullet gave me 1270fps out of my Marlin 1895 LTD V, and 35grn 1475fps.

 

[3Crows]

Thanks. I guess what I am trying to do is to replicate the 1,300 FPS (per HSM) Cowboy loads. I have found them capable of knocking pigs over and putting down deer with aplomb and full penetration (and an authentic cloud of smoke). They are not gas checked and shoot softly and accurately, quality stuff. But, right now, I hate to shoot factory rounds when I have good reloading capability and plenty of fixings to do so.

Yes, I was thinking around 1,500 FPS would be where leading might show up.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Although my experience is with IMR4198, it should be close enough for your H4198.

I load most of my cast in .45-70 to around 1400fps and don't have problems with leading. I load .30 cast (in .308 and .30-30) even higher without problems, this using commercially cast bullets. As always, good bullet to bore fit is essential, but generically a gas check is recommended for cast going over 1500fps.

30grn IMR4198 and a 405grn cast bullet gave me 1270fps out of my Marlin 1895 LTD V, and 35grn 1475fps.

405grn Oregon bullet no gas check, 42gn of 4198 no leading and accurate.

I do shoot a FMJ as my last shot and clean the gun at the range

 

[3Crows]

405grn Oregon bullet no gas check, 42gn of 4198 no leading and accurate.

I do shoot a FMJ as my last shot and clean the gun at the range

Thanks. My GG had 20 Remington "Safe For All Rifles" throught it when it was new to the world and since has seen nothing but lead. I do clean the bore once in a while but have not thus far seen any leading that would be out of normal. A lead bullet going down a steel barrel is going to leave some lead. I do not have a jacketed bullet to run through it!

I wish, maybe Vista will bring it back in time, the jacketed Remington 405 grain bullet, if those were available I would switch over.

What velocity are you getting with that load?

 

[Charlie98]

I guess what I am trying to do is to replicate the 1,300 FPS (per HSM) Cowboy loads.

I'd probably give 31-32grn H4198 a try... that should put you right there.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I'd probably give 31-32grn H4198 a try... that should put you right there.

I want to enjoy my 45-70! I’m going to start making cowboy loads for me and elephant loads for friends... thats way they don’t shoot up all your ammo

 

[Obturation]

No way to guess at what velocity leading will become an issue, too many variables - bore diameter, bullet hardness, lube/coating, ect.

People are so worried about lead deposits but it cleans right out and is nothing to worry about unless accuracy has diminished.

I've pushed a .452 255 grain hi tek coated swc (mbc) up near 1900 fps (pressure in the 50k+ psi range) and had no leading (not in a 45-70). It depends on the accumulation of factors and what happens here may not work over there, small details may make the difference between something that works fine and something that doesn't work at all.

Keep that in mind when gathering wisdom from the internet . a lot of great knowledge out there but a lot of it won't do you a bit of good because your individual circumstance varies from everyone else's by certain factors.

My personal favorite 45-70 plinking/general use load is 32 gn of imr4198, mbc 405 grain coated bullet, standard lrp , fired from my Henry lever action. I'll go up to about 38 grains with that load if I'm looking to flatten trajectory . neither leaves leading

 

[AJC1]

You say your bullets are a good fit, so if your using a pistol lube I think you would not really get problematic leading. I believe rifle lube works against you and bullets sold have hard lube for better shipping.

 

[ericuda]

I have loaded fairly warm with 3031 and those bullets with just a touch of leading in my gg. That is not my routine fun load though and mainly stay in 1200 range. Mbc also has coated slugs you may want to use if worried.

 

[Tallinar]

405grn Oregon bullet no gas check, 42gn of 4198 no leading and accurate.

I do shoot a FMJ as my last shot and clean the gun at the range

I never loaded that hot, but used to shoot 35 gr 4198 with 405gr RN out of my H&R Handi-Rifle. They gave me fairly good accuracy and no leading (and any perceived impairment in accuracy I would have attributed to the shooter's weak shoulder). These were Brinell 18, Missouri Bullt Co. "#1 Buffalo". Never chronographed these loads, but Lyman 49th puts it at about 1400 fps. Good round.

I agree with Charlie98's suggestion of 31-32gr of 4198. Should put you where you want to be. I'd say 1400-1500 fps is about where I'd stop if you want to be conservative in avoiding leading. If you're anything like me, your shoulder's pain tolerance will become a problem before leading does.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I never loaded that hot, but used to shoot 35 gr 4198 with 405gr RN out of my H&R Handi-Rifle. They gave me fairly good accuracy and no leading (and any perceived impairment in accuracy I would have attributed to the shooter's weak shoulder). These were Brinell 18, Missouri Bullt Co. "#1 Buffalo". Never chronographed these loads, but Lyman 49th puts it at about 1400 fps. Good round.

I agree with Charlie98's suggestion of 31-32gr of 4198. Should put you where you want to be. I'd say 1400-1500 fps is about where I'd stop if you want to be conservative in avoiding leading. If you're anything like me, your shoulder's pain tolerance will become a problem before leading does.

my hot 45-70 load hurts… The old timer Bulleye shooter, stop to ask me if I was OK after 10 round on my #1 (love that gun!)

but no pressure signs… Primers looks good, resizes without normal press forces. I really think the 45/70 can handle hot loads,
just the shooter can’t handle it.

 

[Tallinar]

my hot 45-70 load hurts… The old timer Bulleye shooter, stop to ask me if I was OK after 10 round on my #1 (love that gun!)

but no pressure signs… Primers looks good, resizes without normal press forces. I really think the 45/70 can handle hot loads,
just the shooter can’t handle it.

More than 35 grains 4198 is probably beyond the trapdoor level loads, but definitely not beyond the cartridge itself.

Be careful with that shoulder.

 

[Mark_Mark]

More than 35 grains 4198 is probably beyond the trapdoor level loads, but definitely not beyond the cartridge itself.

Be careful with that shoulder.

I will, my knees are already messed from 14 years of working on my knees

 

[Grumpy_old_Fart]

my hot 45-70 load hurts… The old timer Bulleye shooter, stop to ask me if I was OK after 10 round on my #1 (love that gun!)

but no pressure signs… Primers looks good, resizes without normal press forces. I really think the 45/70 can handle hot loads,
just the shooter can’t handle it.

A friend of mine loads a 45-70 to 2700fps with 250gr Hornady FTX bullets. Not something I would do, but it's his custom built 1885. And, yes it did happen. I was recording the Chrono output. From a safe distance. Still no pressure signs. Freaky

 

[Riomouse911]

I want to enjoy my 45-70! I’m going to start making cowboy loads for me and elephant loads for friends... thats way they don’t shoot up all your ammo

I’ve used that trick for quite a while . Surprisingly very few of my somewhat warm to spicy .45/70 loads are missing from the two boxes I’ve assembled for just such uses… in fact I think only six out of the 50 405 gr JSP loads I assembled some time ago have been fired.



Stay safe.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I’ve used that trick for quite a while . Surprisingly very few of my somewhat warm to spicy .45/70 loads are missing from the two boxes I’ve assembled for just such uses… in fact I think only six out of the 50 405 gr JSP loads I assembled some time ago have been fired.

View attachment 1049631

Stay safe.

ooooh yeah! are you left handed? out handwriting looks similar

 

[Mark_Mark]

A friend of mine loads a 45-70 to 2700fps with 250gr Hornady FTX bullets. Not something I would do, but it's his custom built 1885. And, yes it did happen. I was recording the Chrono output. From a safe distance. Still no pressure signs. Freaky

I’m telling you, that old 45/70 Government is a very capable cartridge!!! especially for us handloaders! and with Ruger/Marlin coming out with high quality lever gun (soon) in 45-70, that 100 year old cartridge is here to stay forever. I bet a hard cast or solid 45-70 can take out a elephant with 1 shot!

 

[Riomouse911]

ooooh yeah! are you left handed? out handwriting looks similar

Not writing, batting or shooting, but Dad was left handed so I ride goofy foot and can even putt consistently lefty on the golf course.

Stay safe.

 

[MEHavey]

Lyman 50th has the 1873 Springfield 45-70/ p354
- 405gr(Lym457193 #2 alloy) 2.550 OAL
- 31.5 - 35.0gr / IMR4198 (12,400 - 17,700 CUP Max)
- 1,312 -1,463fps
(Doesn't specify whether 24" or 30: barrel used. From QuickLoad I suspect 24" )


As far as leading threshold, my experience is that 18-20ksi using #2 with competent traditional lubes (50/50, ALOX, etc) is no problem.
In fact tomorrow I'm taking that self-same bullet out, PC'd, for a look at 1,725/30,000 w/ the Ruger#1.

Film at Eleven . . .


.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Thanks. My GG had 20 Remington "Safe For All Rifles" throught it when it was new to the world and since has seen nothing but lead. I do clean the bore once in a while but have not thus far seen any leading that would be out of normal. A lead bullet going down a steel barrel is going to leave some lead. I do not have a jacketed bullet to run through it!

I wish, maybe Vista will bring it back in time, the jacketed Remington 405 grain bullet, if those were available I would switch over.

What velocity are you getting with that load?

I don't shoot jacketed in my cast guns. I don't like mixing copper fouling with lead.
You chose wisely by not doing it.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Any thoughts. I would rather ask now than clean Pb from my barrel later.

Keep increasing the charge until you get leading or run out of shoulder. I suspect your shoulder will give up first. If not "Chore Boy" copper wrapped around a bore brush will remove the lead quick and easy.