Nice little H&R

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MachIVshooter

MachIVshooter

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As some of you know, I have a soft spot for top breaks, and a weird affinity for the little Ivers & H&Rs, which is largely because I like buying them for peanuts and bringing them back from the brink. I have an H&R .32 I'll post before & after pictures of as soon as I get the new grips. Anyway, I was perusing week before last and came across another H&R that really caught my eye. It was difficult to tell from the GB photos, but it looked really clean, so I bid on it. I ended up getting this little .38 S&W Auto Ejector model for $69 + $30 shipping, and when it showed up yesterday, I was really taken back. Yes, it's a black powder model, and no, it didn't have a box, but I don't think this thing was fired more than a handful of times, perhaps never after original factory testing. It's beautiful! And it's as tight as I've ever felt one that I haven't rebuilt.

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You rarely see blued H&Rs of that vintage that are that nice. I think there is more interest in guns like that than there used to be, so that is a VERY good price.

Does the little push-button by the top catch tell the experts something about the vintage of this gun?

PS - the big Bill Goforth H&R book, which was finished after Mr. Goforth's death by Jim Hauff, must be out of print. It is $145+ on Amazon now, up from its original $89 or $99.

(I believe Mr. Hauff also died before it was actually in print, BTW.)
 
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Beautiful little pistol. Black powder, to me that's a plus. I've wanted an H&R top break, any caliber, for a long time but never lucked out. You got a gem, IMO.
 
MachIVshooter said:
As some of you know, I have a soft spot for top breaks, and a weird affinity for the little Ivers & H&Rs, which is largely because I like buying them for peanuts and bringing them back from the brink. I have an H&R .32 I'll post before & after pictures of as soon as I get the new grips. Anyway, I was perusing week before last and came across another H&R that really caught my eye. It was difficult to tell from the GB photos, but it looked really clean, so I bid on it. I ended up getting this little .38 S&W Auto Ejector model for $69 + $30 shipping, and when it showed up yesterday, I was really taken back. Yes, it's a black powder model, and no, it didn't have a box, but I don't think this thing was fired more than a handful of times, perhaps never after original factory testing. It's beautiful! And it's as tight as I've ever felt one that I haven't rebuilt.

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I also love the top breaks, and this one is beautiful! Great score!
 
MachIVshooter said:
No, but the five patent dates & letter code serial number do. Or at least I think they do. Based on those markings, this one is a Premier first model small frame 5th variation, which were manufactured in 1904.
Click to expand...

Another way to tell a rough estimate of date is by the H&R rollstamp on the barrel. I can't recall the specifics however.

I've got an H&R premier in minty condition that's a long barreled, 7 shot, 22 RimFire with the black plastic grips. It's a later model, though certainly old as H&R ceased production around 1915 iirc. It too is a tight crisp revolver and the blueing is deep and shiney.
 
Hanshi said:
Black powder, to me that's a plus.
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Well, I like shooters, so prefer smokeless models. Where the .32 H&Rs are concerned, they're still on the 5 shot .38 frame and have decently thick chamber walls, so I don't worry about smokeless .32 S&W loads in those. The .38's are a bit sketchier, though, H&R or IJ. I actually just received a new micro carbide keyseat cutter I ordered for cutting cylinder stop notches, and have reamers on the way for both .32 and .38 cal to cut the chambers in new 17-4 stainless cylinders for the little H&R or IJ guns. The IJ .32 that's getting the first one is also going to have a strap/latch reinforcement made out of either 17-4 or 4140 CRMO. Once done, that one will be used with .32 S&W and .32 ACP.

I can tighten them up when they have lots of play that causes them to be out of time by welding up the rear face of the cylinder frame and re-machining it

IMG_3077.JPG

IMG_3078.JPG

It's cast with who knows what contaminates in the porous metal after a century plus, so the welds don't blend out perfectly and tend to pinhole, but the result is a new surface of harder metal than original.



On the H&R guns, I make a hardened steel pin that gets press fit into the center of the ratchet so the ratchet teeth don't dig into the frame. I can also take up all the end play and tighten cylinder gaps this way:

IMG_3088.JPG

When I'm done with them, they lock up as tight as a Python.

BigBlue 94 said:
Another way to tell a rough estimate of date is by the H&R rollstamp on the barrel. I can't recall the specifics however.
Click to expand...

That's where the patent dates are.

The second model 5th variation also had all 5 patent dates, but those allegedly have strictly numerical serial numbers. According to all the info I can find, only the 4th and 5th variation premiers had letter code S/Ns where top break centerfires are concerned.
 
It had something to do with the way Harrington and Richardson Co was stamped in one line or two I believe or maybe there was no "co". However if I'm remembering right, this coincided with the factory burning down around 1900

I'll have to research mine a bit more. I nearly posted it in the handguns and knives thread, but chose a different pistol

EDIT: the info in this post actually is referring to Hopkins & Allen, NOT H&R. The H&A factory is the one that burned down and they ceased all production before WWI
 
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My only H&R top break is a “Sportsman 999” and it’s an absolute joy to shoot. You did well on that buy, and your skills are top notch. Thank you for continuing to post things like this as there is so little interest, technical data, or knowledge about them in mainstream “stuff”. Threads like this show the little guns in their glory, and help to educate and renew interest in these fun and affordable pieces of American history.

As a side note: there seems to be a growing interest in the “roaring twenties” and prohibition era of American history. You can bet that in that time period a LOT of these little shooters served a whole lot of folks well as personal defense and home defense arms. The interest in the era will hopefully build interest in this era of firearms advancement and technology.
 
What a great find... And at a great price also. Thanks for posting and it's very interesting to see the revival of some of those common man, working class guns that were once upon a time probably the most common guns on the market because of price and because most gun buyers didn't have the money to afford S & W's, Colts, etc..
 
As a fellow rehabilitator of old guns, I admire your work. I have had some success in getting working guns by swapping parts between examples and fitting, but I unfortunately lack access to all but hand tools for the time being.

The pin in the center of the ratchet is brilliant. I have at least two top breaks that could be made shootable with a similar fix.

What do you do for those little V springs? I've seen gunsmith kits of assorted sizes for sale, but I wonder if making them by hand might be a better method.

Thanks for sharing!
 
RevolvingGarbage said:
What do you do for those little V springs? I've seen gunsmith kits of assorted sizes for sale, but I wonder if making them by hand might be a better method.
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I have made a few V springs for some of the more simple tasks where the amount of force needed is minimal. I have used spring steel “bracelet” wire to do a few, but I prefer the springs in 3 ring binders. I’m sure MachIVshooter has a much better method of making springs. Flatwire springs are a pain in the butt to make. I have made those by intentionally making them too wide out of 3 ring binder springs, and then cutting them down a bit at a time to avoid heating them and losing spring properties. They work, but they aren’t as good as factory springs. I seem to recall MachIVshooter having some spring issues with the miniature AR a while back. Springs are a pain.
 
RevolvingGarbage said:
What do you do for those little V springs? I've seen gunsmith kits of assorted sizes for sale, but I wonder if making them by hand might be a better method.
Click to expand...

Flat wire V springs are tough to get right, and not particularly durable when made from pre-tempered spring stock. If there's room, I'll usually either bore a seat for a coil spring or relieve the part for a torsion spring, which I form out of music wire using transfer punches as mandrels. If not, I've had good luck basically "framing" the profile of the original flat wire V spring using small diameter music wire.

The little V springs used for the sears in many of these old top breaks are frequently broken, rendering them double action only. There's almost always enough meat in the trigger guard to bore a seat hole and use 1/8" diameter coil springs.
 
WestKentucky said:
My only H&R top break is a “Sportsman 999” and it’s an absolute joy to shoot..
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Those are really neat pistols, just usually bid up/sell for more than I'm willing to pay. Isn't that they're not worth it, I'm just cheap! I tend to hold out on stuff I want until the right deal comes along. The Marlin '94 .25-20 I just won on GB is such a critter; could buy one any time for $700-$1,200, but wasn't willing to spend that. I scored this one for $500.

WestKentucky said:
As a side note: there seems to be a growing interest in the “roaring twenties” and prohibition era of American history. You can bet that in that time period a LOT of these little shooters served a whole lot of folks well as personal defense and home defense arms. The interest in the era will hopefully build interest in this era of firearms advancement and technology.
Click to expand...

I hope not! That'll drive up the prices on these things. I like being able to get them for $40-$70 on average!
 
MachIVshooter said:
Well, I like shooters, so prefer smokeless models. Where the .32 H&Rs are concerned, they're still on the 5 shot .38 frame and have decently thick chamber walls, so I don't worry about smokeless .32 S&W loads in those. The .38's are a bit sketchier, though, H&R or IJ. I actually just received a new micro carbide keyseat cutter I ordered for cutting cylinder stop notches, and have reamers on the way for both .32 and .38 cal to cut the chambers in new 17-4 stainless cylinders for the little H&R or IJ guns. The IJ .32 that's getting the first one is also going to have a strap/latch reinforcement made out of either 17-4 or 4140 CRMO. Once done, that one will be used with .32 S&W and .32 ACP.

I can tighten them up when they have lots of play that causes them to be out of time by welding up the rear face of the cylinder frame and re-machining it

View attachment 826586

View attachment 826587

It's cast with who knows what contaminates in the porous metal after a century plus, so the welds don't blend out perfectly and tend to pinhole, but the result is a new surface of harder metal than original.



On the H&R guns, I make a hardened steel pin that gets press fit into the center of the ratchet so the ratchet teeth don't dig into the frame. I can also take up all the end play and tighten cylinder gaps this way:

View attachment 826588

When I'm done with them, they lock up as tight as a Python.



That's where the patent dates are.

The second model 5th variation also had all 5 patent dates, but those allegedly have strictly numerical serial numbers. According to all the info I can find, only the 4th and 5th variation premiers had letter code S/Ns where top break centerfires are concerned.
Click to expand...
All my respect to an artisan like you Sir !
 
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