What's the better revolver: H&R or Iver Johnson?

[John C]

I have a hankering for something different. Looking around on Gunbroker, I see old H&R model 900 and 922 revolvers, the kind where you have to remove the cylinder to eject the cases. I also see Iver Johnson Sealed 8 and Model 55 revolvers for similar prices, right around $180. Which is the better revolver?

One thing I see is that many of the sellers remark that the IJ Sealed 8 revolver cylinders have side-to-side play. Is that common in mid-century IJ guns? Are the H&Rs better built? I realize that these are budget guns, but I would prefer to avoid obvious Ford Edsels of the bunch.

Alternately, are these guns complete garbage, and it's not worth getting either one?

Thanks,

-John

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Of course every company has good and bad models but I think over all the Iver Johnson revolvers are better made, stronger and more collectable than any H&R revolver.

 

[JRH6856]

I have an H&R 923 which my father bought in 1952. .22LR, 9 shot. 4" Chrome. It is a solid gun. Double action is heavy, about 18#, but single action is light a crisp. It is accurate. H&R made some accurate .22 revolvers. I knew an NRA Lifetime Master who used an H&R 999 for Bullseye. If I had to choose, I would probably go with an H&R .22. The 999 is probably the best gun H&R made, but the 922/923 is fun to shoot. For a centerfire, it would depend on the individual. gun. What I have seen from both companies seem about the same.

 

[evan price]

Quality wise I think both are about the same from the ones I've played with.

Check for peening of the cylinder and for good smooth tight actions. There's enough of each brand out there that there's no reason to settle for a poor quality example when you want something better.
I recently turned down a H&R 999 (Which is on my list of stuff to have) because of severe rust pitting all over due to being kept in a leather holster in damp conditions.
Price was right, but in the end I could buy a decent H&R 999 for the price of fixing that one.

 

[Waveski]

Snag a 999 by H&R. You will not regret it.

 

[BCRider]

A lot depends on what you want from it. I had a two H&R's and an IJ before I found my S&W and Ruger. I've kept the top break H&R Sportsman simply because it IS a top break. The other H&R has a lot of cylinder wobble but seems to shoot "minute of pop can" just fine. It's a future project to see if I can tighten it up and reduce the group size by making a new base pin since it appears to be the base pin which is wobbly in both the frame and cylinder.

But I can get better groups from my S&W by far. So I'd say that these cheapies are not the most accurate guns around. If that will matter to you then I'd shop for something else which will deliver the smaller groups for those times that it counts. But if "minute of pop can" at 15 yards is fine then go with one that you think will be a little fun.

I've got a NAA Earl that has to have the cylinder popped out to reload. I don't find that this is any sort of detriment unless I'm trying to do it all standing with no working surface. Then I run out of hands FAST. But if I had a holster so I could plop out the cylinder and holster the frame to leave me with two hands to shuck and load then pull the frame back out and re-assemble then that style would be just fine.

Some will find that amount of fussing to be over the top. For me it's part of the charm of that particular firearm.

 

[JRH6856]

I've got a NAA Earl that has to have the cylinder popped out to reload. I don't find that this is any sort of detriment unless I'm trying to do it all standing with no working surface. Then I run out of hands FAST. But if I had a holster so I could plop out the cylinder and holster the frame to leave me with two hands to shuck and load then pull the frame back out and re-assemble then that style would be just fine.

Yah, I had that problem.

With my 923, I'm left handed so I hold the cylinder in my right hand and hang the frame from my pinky, leaving my left hand free to shuck and load. The Earl doesn't have a trigger guard so you would have to put your finger through the frame after removing the cylinder. That might be a little warm right after shooting.

 

[John C]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your thoughtful replies.

I already have a few Single-sixes (6.5 inch regular and Bisley, and a 9.5 inch regular), a S&W 17-3, and a S&W 317. I just want something new and different to mess around with. I should have bought one 10-15 years ago, when they were well under $100. Now, they're $150 on up.

My main concern is whether these were the American equivalent of Rohm or other pre-1968 garbage. Also, if one was particularly better than the other, I'll go with that. It sounds like these are roughly equivalent, so I'll go with the next one that crosses my path for a reasonable amount of $$.

The H&R 999 Sportsman is high on my list, but in EUC they go for $400. I bought my S&W 17-3 two years ago with some finish wear, but otherwise perfect mechanical shape, for $375. So that will take a bit to swallow to pay more for an H&R. If they're that good, I'll go for it....

-John

 

[John C]

BCRider;

I've considered getting a NAA Black Widow or Earl, but I'm concerned about the accuracy. I had an NAA .22LR, but the sights were rudimentary, at best. How has the Earl been for you? Also, I presume you have the 6 inch version, since you're in Canada?

Thanks,

-John

 

[BCRider]

NAA did up some special 4.2" models for us. AND put on a "Canadian" serial number set starting with "C". I've got one of the first twenty that came into the country. So that and a buck will get me a good cuppa joe.....

If you can figure out how to best hold onto an Earl and if you get the 4 or longer version I'd say that you'll be highly pleasantly surprised at the accuracy. It took me a while but once I got onto the grip and trigger pull, which is hellishly stiff, I found I could manage 1.5" groups at 12 to 13 yards. I've shot it at my club's 20 yard basement range as well and managed to keep it at around 3 inches for 10 shots. And for someone with "old guy eyetis" I'd have to say that the gun is pretty good. If I were AS good "we" would be printing down around 2 inch or slightly bigger groups with it I'm sure.

I don't take it out that often but when I do I tend to run through 50 or more rounds and there's a big silly grin on my face the whole time.... and BIG black powder stains all over the area around my thumbs and forefingers.... .

IF I were allowed to carry handguns around the woods and IF this area had snakes or other poisonous pests where a rimfire is a suitable protection or pest control tool I'd have no issue at all carrying my Earl. I'd likely fit it with a somewhat more substantial grip though so I could draw, hold, cock and fire one handed instead of feeling like I'm trying to beat in framing nails with a little CrackerJackx toy hammer......

Oh, the reason why I HAD to buy The Earl is that I've got a pair of Uberti Remington clones for black powder cowboy shooting. The Earl completes the family portrait....

 

[Jim K]

First, let me say that either the IJ or the H&R will be better than a Rohm. Lots better.

But there are some drawbacks to either the IJ or H&R guns, though. Both the original companies are long out of business, though many parts are still available. But few gunsmiths will work on the guns since customers won't pay a fair price to fix what they consider "cheap" guns. Plus repair requires a lot of pin punching, and trial and error fitting, never things a gunsmith likes to get involved in.

And the internal designs are old, and not refined, with poor DA trigger pulls and iffy single actions. And most are not especially accurate, even the H&R 999, the top of the company's line. (The problem usually is cylinder holes that are not bored perfectly parallel.)

After WWII, both companies faced the same basic problem. Their designs were old, and they could never get the capital needed for a complete redesign. Both produced some potentially good guns, but only in model shop form, never in production. Meantime, costs kept climbing and again there was no capital for automation. Essentially, they had a lot of expensive employees making a few low cost guns, not exactly a formula for success.

Jim

 

[Kaeto]

I'd rather have the H&R over the IJ. I have two H&R New Model Hammerless Top Breaks and have carried them as a CCW.



(Not a pic of one of mine, but one I found online)

 

[chicharrones]

The H&R 999 Sportsman is high on my list, but in EUC they go for $400. I bought my S&W 17-3 two years ago with some finish wear, but otherwise perfect mechanical shape, for $375. So that will take a bit to swallow to pay more for an H&R. If they're that good, I'll go for it....

-John

Like mentioned, the H&Rs and IJs are much better than any Rohm I have seen. Of course a Ruger SS or S&W is better than an H&R or an IJ from what I have seen, too.

Now, there are some classic IJs and the H&R 999 that are externally finished up to Ruger and nearly S&W levels.

The thing the H&R 999 has going for it is the essentially obsolete break open action and a very nice to use set of sights. Other than that, it has a heavy trigger (both DA or SA) and taking it apart will be a relative pain since it has no side plate and everything is pinned in place.

I think the .22 caliber H&Rs and IJs make good plinkers. They can very accurate if they have good adjustable sights and you can shoot a heavy trigger well.

 

[BCRider]

The H&R 999 Sportsman is high on my list, but in EUC they go for $400. I bought my S&W 17-3 two years ago with some finish wear, but otherwise perfect mechanical shape, for $375. So that will take a bit to swallow to pay more for an H&R. If they're that good, I'll go for it....

SAY WHAT? ! ? ! ? ! ?

The S&W is easily five times better than any H&R or IJ gun. I can't imagine a situation where the prices would be comparable, let alone see an H&R listing for MORE than a Model 17. The ONLY justification is that the H&R's are EXTREMELY rare in the EUC and it's collectors driving up the price.

If you have a Model 17 already then you're world's ahead of the game. I wouldn't even be bothered shopping for an H&R or IJ other than perhaps to get one of the top break models simply for the top break aspect. But entertaining as they are they won't hold a candle to the S&W for making small tidy groups on your target.

 

[WestKentucky]

Another happy sportsman999 owner here. Mine is 6" and handed down from my grandmother. It's a great gun with good trigger and good feel. The bad thing is that the plunger has a plastic head that breaks. It broke on mine and cost 30 bucks to fix. If you buy HR buy a 999. If you buy IJ, buy a safety hammerless gun as they are just a lot of fun.

 

[JRH6856]

Another happy sportsman999 owner here. Mine is 6" and handed down from my grandmother. It's a great gun with good trigger and good feel. The bad thing is that the plunger has a plastic head that breaks. It broke on mine and cost 30 bucks to fix. If you buy HR buy a 999. If you buy IJ, buy a safety hammerless gun as they are just a lot of fun.

FWIW, If by "plunger", you mean the mainspring guide, Numrich sells a mainspring guide with a steel head for the same price as the plastic one.

 

[BCRider]

OK, so just where is the EUC? I assumed it was an acronym for "European something something". But that isn't coming up when I look for it.

WK, I agree that they are good guns for the money. At least for us here in North America where the guns are priced more in line with their ability, fit and finish. But they simply aren't at the same level as a S&W 17 or K22 in any of those factors.

I really like my own Sportsman top break. As you say it's got a fairly nice trigger, in SA at least, and the top break is just great fun. And the gun is designed and put together in a nice manner so it looks serious enough and not like some sort of toy as with some brands.

 

[John C]

EUC is Excellent Used Condition. I'm just a 1000 or so miles due south of you, in the US.

Look at the bids on H&R 999 on Gunbroker. It is illuminating.

 

[BCRider]

Ah..... well..... So much for reading between the lines.....

Since you're in the US I just simply can't see paying that much for an H&R unless it's pretty close to like new. And even then it makes no sense if I can buy a S&W for the same or even less.

I know that prices are based on regions, countries and how badly someone wants something. And I suppose that for a like new condition in today's market $400 might seem OK to some folks. But if I can buy a 17 for the same money that is in good operating condition it's easily worth it vs an H&R or IJ. Even if the S&W looks like rats have gnawed at it

 

[Monac]

I have an H&R 999 I bought in the early 1980's. It was my first pistol, and was a good, reliable gun. It had decent accuracy. The trigger pull was heavy, but once you learned to shoot well with it, you could should just about anything well.

I also have a 1950's vintage Iver Johnson Model 67, which was their top of the line 22 target revolver at the time. I have shot it very little, because the cylinder hand does not reliably rotate the cylinder, so it misfires constantly. It also suffers from light hammer-strikes. The quality of the finish does not seem equal the later H&R (very black bluing, very shallow cylinder flutes, plastic grips instead of wood, etc.)

These guns have colored my opinion of H&R and Iver Johnson. At one time they may have been equals, but H&R seems to have pulled ahead in the 1930's, and Iver Johnson began to dwindle away in both quality and quantity. That's just my thinking, of course.

 

[JRH6856]

Just a quick search on GunWatcher.com yields H&R 999 prices from a low of $395 to a high of $599. (Though there is one listed on GunsAmerica at $4,100.00 )


S&W 17 runs from $625 to $1995.

 

[BCRider]

I might be out to lunch but before the present political vs firearms scare it seems that it would have been unthinkable to pay that much for an H&R. Or even that upper end for a Model 17.

 

[JRH6856]

Well, that is what people are asking. What people are actuallypaying or be willing to pay may be a very different matter. Some of the listings found by the search for both guns are multiples for expired auctions where the reserve was not met and the same gun was relisted with the same buy now price.