So off of another sidetracked thread this came up. Also one with the 38 Spl cartridge showing how weak it is. I think i must have hit my limit with all these new wonder cartridges doing what others from the past cannot.(same things guys like Taffin, Pierce, Skeeter and Keith have done over and again with pistol rounds.)
I'm going to site some examples of very manipulated data from manufactures and explain what they are doing, how they are doing it and the obvious why they are( to sell new stuff ).
So lets look at factory offerings first for both:
260.rem:
factory offering Federal Gold metal Match SMK 142Gr. B.C.611 G1
2750FPS. right off federals website.
Note: They dont load the 142Gr SMK in the 6.5cm because it sucks. cannot even get close to the velocity of the 260 rem. the bullet is to long to obtain that kind of B.C. so i picked the closest one i could in the creedmore favor. go ahead fact check me look it up.
6.5CM:
factory offering Federal Gold Metal Match SMK 140 Gr B.C. .535 G1
2675FPS. right off federals website
so right off the bat with factory rounds. the extra FPS and way better B.C. is already in favor of the .260 Remington. ( if you think i picked unfair bullets i say again do research before you comment) now wait till i show you the sammi and factory curve to help mitigate this to true long range shooters that reload.
On to the true Potential of the .260 Rem
Now they have already for unknown reasons Set the PSI limit of this round to 60k PSI. It should be 65K psi. ( i wont go into detail about that right now. I'm not a fan of sammi guidelines as you'll come to find out.)
with that in mind lets look at some book reloads first.
From Hodgdons Best load Serria 142gr. Match King
Hodgdon
H4831
.264"
48.0C
2,747
58,700 PSI ( notice this limit ) ill go into more detail later as this isnt even a great powder too use.
Now
6.5CM 142gr Serria Match King
Hodgdon
Hybrid 100V
.264"
41.5
2,737
62,900 PSI ( notice this limit ) well thats quite the unfair advantage.
now why would they do that increase in PSI? they both are so close that there is no reason to rate them 5k psi apart. Thanks SAMMI (not)
Ok now the fun part REAL LOADS
when i do this you guys can bash Quickloads all you want but it does get close and i am not going to be modifying anything so there will be another slight disadvantage to the 260. i am however going to set the PSI to 65K for both. ANYONE WHO SHOOTS LONG RANGE KNOWS WHY AND SHOULD NOT EVEN ARGUE ME DOING SO. WITH THAT SAID:
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
now notice on my 2 screenshots.
First these are the 2 best powders In my experience for each caliber with the match king.
Second ill have you notice velocity. winner 260 remington and your saying yea but not by much. well go to third
Third notice the case fill capacity. yeah to much in the 6.5CM to actually work. and trust me it is even worse in real testing. it just does not have the case capacity the .260 Remington does. and it shows when you load to the real potential of each. Especially when you consider holding the bullet out to mag length you gain even more capacity with the .260 Remington over the 6.5CM. Now we are around 250-300 fps apart with a true long range/ high B.C. bullet.
Now Ive used my Experience Several times in this post so far. before i go into more detail or answer questions that i am sure will follow. I am an ammo manufacture. I hold an 07 FFL which covers 06 FFL. ( dont get me started on that whole joke) I develop/design long range Precision rounds for a side income and im sure you have heard or seen one or 2 of them. i was about to divulge my accomplishments for merit but decided that would be an unfair advantage to persuade any argument in my favor.
Finally some pics and Some enlightenment on SAMMI/GUN&AMMO MANUFACTURES/CORPORATE INFRASTRUCTURE and THE SALES PITCH.
So what do you do when something isnt broken.... you dont fix it. well now there is always room for improvement right?
well i guess ideas just blossom in the new gun and cartridge world every year for shot show.........
Not so much.
Now Im going to tell you something they dont want you to know. SAMMI is a guideline.... there is zero legal enforcement or obligation to follow sammi specs at any time. its more of a standard of practice to make things easy for different manufactures.
With that said. How do you thing the 6.5CM came to be? well the rollout of the 260 remington was a flop. they used the wrong rifle twist and didnt market it as a long range caliber but just a hunting round. however after some work from long range guys low and behold it is fantastic
well what do you do with it? its not really broken so do you reintroduce it or build something almost identical and leave a little room for improvement later?.
well if your income and livelihood depends on selling new and better things you are better off inventing a new thing and improving on it later. take this for what its worth but i see it to many times.
30-06 factory ammo is now close to 308 in velocity and the 30-06 used to run 150fps below a 300 win mag. Sammi dropped the PSI on the 30-06
some other examples are 38 special, 45 colt, 44 special. all dropped in PSI by sammi.
wonder why they would do that? because if they didnt then the guys making new calibers really could not improve on existing ones and would quit following sammi guideline to beat the competition and sell new/better calibers something like a 260 Remington +p or 6.5cm Extreme. lol only difference would be an increase in pressure....
take all this for what its worth but if you ever wonder how buffalo bore or cor-bon or underwood do what they do then here you go. ever wonder why the military runs there ammo way above Sammi Pressures? well here you go. wonder why hard bolt lift, flat primers and every other pressure sign is on long range fields without ever a gun blowing up well here you go.
i was going to do more info sharing from other sources but its been an hour and my kids need my time not people online. Do the Research yourself.
P.S. look at the 300 blackout. It really does nothing the 7.62x39 can not do in an ar-15 platform. Its weaker and more expensive. The 7.62x39 can run a 220 grain 30 call bullet just like the 300 blackout. It can run a 125-150 grain 200 fps faster. Why even invent it? For those that say bolt problems I say look up the 6.5 in an ar-15 and then say something about bolt issues. The 6.5g parent cartridge is a 7.62x39
Same bolt face.
I'm going to site some examples of very manipulated data from manufactures and explain what they are doing, how they are doing it and the obvious why they are( to sell new stuff ).
So lets look at factory offerings first for both:
260.rem:
factory offering Federal Gold metal Match SMK 142Gr. B.C.611 G1
2750FPS. right off federals website.
Note: They dont load the 142Gr SMK in the 6.5cm because it sucks. cannot even get close to the velocity of the 260 rem. the bullet is to long to obtain that kind of B.C. so i picked the closest one i could in the creedmore favor. go ahead fact check me look it up.
6.5CM:
factory offering Federal Gold Metal Match SMK 140 Gr B.C. .535 G1
2675FPS. right off federals website
so right off the bat with factory rounds. the extra FPS and way better B.C. is already in favor of the .260 Remington. ( if you think i picked unfair bullets i say again do research before you comment) now wait till i show you the sammi and factory curve to help mitigate this to true long range shooters that reload.
On to the true Potential of the .260 Rem
Now they have already for unknown reasons Set the PSI limit of this round to 60k PSI. It should be 65K psi. ( i wont go into detail about that right now. I'm not a fan of sammi guidelines as you'll come to find out.)
with that in mind lets look at some book reloads first.
From Hodgdons Best load Serria 142gr. Match King
Hodgdon
H4831
.264"
48.0C
2,747
58,700 PSI ( notice this limit ) ill go into more detail later as this isnt even a great powder too use.
Now
6.5CM 142gr Serria Match King
Hodgdon
Hybrid 100V
.264"
41.5
2,737
62,900 PSI ( notice this limit ) well thats quite the unfair advantage.
now why would they do that increase in PSI? they both are so close that there is no reason to rate them 5k psi apart. Thanks SAMMI (not)
Ok now the fun part REAL LOADS
when i do this you guys can bash Quickloads all you want but it does get close and i am not going to be modifying anything so there will be another slight disadvantage to the 260. i am however going to set the PSI to 65K for both. ANYONE WHO SHOOTS LONG RANGE KNOWS WHY AND SHOULD NOT EVEN ARGUE ME DOING SO. WITH THAT SAID:
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
now notice on my 2 screenshots.
First these are the 2 best powders In my experience for each caliber with the match king.
Second ill have you notice velocity. winner 260 remington and your saying yea but not by much. well go to third
Third notice the case fill capacity. yeah to much in the 6.5CM to actually work. and trust me it is even worse in real testing. it just does not have the case capacity the .260 Remington does. and it shows when you load to the real potential of each. Especially when you consider holding the bullet out to mag length you gain even more capacity with the .260 Remington over the 6.5CM. Now we are around 250-300 fps apart with a true long range/ high B.C. bullet.
Now Ive used my Experience Several times in this post so far. before i go into more detail or answer questions that i am sure will follow. I am an ammo manufacture. I hold an 07 FFL which covers 06 FFL. ( dont get me started on that whole joke) I develop/design long range Precision rounds for a side income and im sure you have heard or seen one or 2 of them. i was about to divulge my accomplishments for merit but decided that would be an unfair advantage to persuade any argument in my favor.
Finally some pics and Some enlightenment on SAMMI/GUN&AMMO MANUFACTURES/CORPORATE INFRASTRUCTURE and THE SALES PITCH.
So what do you do when something isnt broken.... you dont fix it. well now there is always room for improvement right?
well i guess ideas just blossom in the new gun and cartridge world every year for shot show.........
Not so much.
Now Im going to tell you something they dont want you to know. SAMMI is a guideline.... there is zero legal enforcement or obligation to follow sammi specs at any time. its more of a standard of practice to make things easy for different manufactures.
With that said. How do you thing the 6.5CM came to be? well the rollout of the 260 remington was a flop. they used the wrong rifle twist and didnt market it as a long range caliber but just a hunting round. however after some work from long range guys low and behold it is fantastic
well what do you do with it? its not really broken so do you reintroduce it or build something almost identical and leave a little room for improvement later?.
well if your income and livelihood depends on selling new and better things you are better off inventing a new thing and improving on it later. take this for what its worth but i see it to many times.
30-06 factory ammo is now close to 308 in velocity and the 30-06 used to run 150fps below a 300 win mag. Sammi dropped the PSI on the 30-06
some other examples are 38 special, 45 colt, 44 special. all dropped in PSI by sammi.
wonder why they would do that? because if they didnt then the guys making new calibers really could not improve on existing ones and would quit following sammi guideline to beat the competition and sell new/better calibers something like a 260 Remington +p or 6.5cm Extreme. lol only difference would be an increase in pressure....
take all this for what its worth but if you ever wonder how buffalo bore or cor-bon or underwood do what they do then here you go. ever wonder why the military runs there ammo way above Sammi Pressures? well here you go. wonder why hard bolt lift, flat primers and every other pressure sign is on long range fields without ever a gun blowing up well here you go.
i was going to do more info sharing from other sources but its been an hour and my kids need my time not people online. Do the Research yourself.
P.S. look at the 300 blackout. It really does nothing the 7.62x39 can not do in an ar-15 platform. Its weaker and more expensive. The 7.62x39 can run a 220 grain 30 call bullet just like the 300 blackout. It can run a 125-150 grain 200 fps faster. Why even invent it? For those that say bolt problems I say look up the 6.5 in an ar-15 and then say something about bolt issues. The 6.5g parent cartridge is a 7.62x39
Same bolt face.
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