Medium-bore for light game?

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358 Winchester is probably the best cast bullet rifle cartridge there is. Load up a 22o grain lead bullet with a big flat nose to around 2000 fps and there's very little it won't plow straight through even at a steep quartering angle. Cast a hollow point with a NOE or MP mold and you can probably slow it down a little bit and get the same result.

A few years ago I shot a big whitetail doe with a cast hollow point from my 375 Ruger at around 1900 fps. The exit hole was the size of a tangerine and she didn't go very far.
 
labnoti said:
I'll bring up the .358 Win again, but I could name the .35 Whelen also as cartridges that actually don't recoil that hard. They certainly recoil less than a 7mm Magnum, less than a 300 Win Mag, PRC, and even less than a .45-70 -- all much, much more popular than the 35 caliber rifles. So I don't think heavy recoil limits medium bores.
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Not true for a loaded up 35 Whelen, mine pushing 250gr bullets to 2,450 fps kicked much harder than 7mm RM, on the order of very heavy 300 WM. You could load the 35 Whelen down, but the same is true of the other two as well. People forget that recoil is a product of the conservation of momentum, bullet weight plays a much larger role in that equation than it does in the KE equation.

Haven't shot a .358 Winny, it's probably a bit easier on the shoulder, but 35 Whelen and 9.3x62 sport much higher recoil than .270, .30-06, 7mm RM, etc in modern loadings. I think that's part of the reason medium bores are not popular for light to medium game, you're trading recoil and/or trajectory for no real advantage on light game (which are easy to kill well in the first place).
 
Legionnaire said:
I have absolutely no need for a 375 Ruger. All the same, I think I'd like one, if just. to play with.
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I live in Kentucky. Do you think I need a 375 Ruger either? Maybe if the zoo animals escape or genetics lab down the road has a velociraptor escape :)

Mines a Ruger LH stainless with a laminate stock. They apparently were selling very poorly so one of the distributors blew them out cheap and I bought it mainly just for the pure silliness of it. I’m never going to Africa, but just in case I ever get drawn for the eastern KY elk hunt I’m all set.
 
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someguy2800 said:
I have always wanted to try a 338 federal or 358 winchester to see if there is a better compromise middle ground between the big bores and 30 calibers. The area I hunt is red willow and tamarack sloughs, which once you get into the tall grass and willows you can typically only see 20 feet and the ground is usually wet. Blood trailing deer in that labyrinth can be a real challenge. Anyway what I have observed over the years is that a deer shot through the lungs with basically any high power rifle is basically on a timer, they run till the oxygen in their brain runs out and down they go. Doesn't seam to matter that much what you shoot them with. The differentiator is the size of the blood trail. In my experience the bigger diameter and heavier a bullet you put through the deer, the better the wound opening and resulting blood trail will be. A 243 kills them just as fast as a 444 marlin or 45-70, but the 444 marlin leaves a blood trail that Ray Charles could follow. Its literally like walking a red carpet to the deer. The small bores can be prone to having them bleed out internally unless the right bullet is used. I am immensely impressed how the 44 and 45's do but they do leave a lot of blood shot tissue. After weighing options I decided to try a 358 yeti. 358 yeti is a wildcat made from a shortened 308 case and necked to .358". Mine pushes a 180gr hot core to 2500 fps, so basically a 35 Remington +P+++. I'm really excited to see how it performs.

7.62x39, 358 Yeti, 444 marlin, 25-06

View attachment 869732
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Frankly, the hunting you describe would be ideal for a .54 muzzleloader shooting round ball. Makes a big hole, dumps a ton of energy into the animal, big blood trail, and the short distance shots mean you lose nothing with a smokepole. Best of all the tissue damage is extremely modest.
 
brewer12345 said:
Frankly, the hunting you describe would be ideal for a .54 muzzleloader shooting round ball. Makes a big hole, dumps a ton of energy into the animal, big blood trail, and the short distance shots mean you lose nothing with a smokepole. Best of all the tissue damage is extremely modest.
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Our hunting we do from elevated stands so we can see farther than we would from the ground. My average shot is 50-75 yards, but 1 out of 10 will be a 150 to 200 yards if the stars align and one happens to wander out in just the right spot. I tend to plan for worst case scenario so I like to be able to shoot out to at least 200 without accurate ranging and little or no hold over. My 358 yeti is about an inch high at 100 and 2” low at 200. Not bad
 
Elkins45 said:
I live in Kentucky. Do you think I need a 357 Ruger either? Maybe if the zoo animals escape or genetics lab down the road has a velociraptor escape :)

Mines a Ruger LH stainless with a laminate stock. They apparently were selling very poorly so one of the distributors blew them out cheap and I bought it mainly just for the pure silliness of it. I’m never going to Africa, but just in case I ever get drawn for the eastern KY elk hunt I’m all set.
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I realize that was a typo. But I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a .358 Ruger wildcat out there already. It would be pretty close to a .358 Norma in performance.
 
I have a 338-06 and it is becoming my favorite hunting rifle for whitetail and mule deer. I like to think of it as my super 30-06 because to like a 30-06 is to really like a 338-06. I have been using 180 grain AccuBond bullets with Reloader 17 and it shoots less than MOA at 200 meters. It is a pre 64 Winchester featherweight with a 22 inch barrel. So smooth and so accurate.
 
I definitely consider 3006 overkill for deer unless your shots are routinely over 200 yards. Use what you have and like, but I prefer less recoil and meat loss.
 
The reality is that with the exception of .35 Remington and .375 H&H, very few medium bores on rifle cases have ever had much market in the US in the smokeless powder era, and there's a darn good reason for that: most of them are less useful then their small and large bore competitors. The 35 Remington is purely a brush play - in terms of capabilities, it offers nothing the .30-30 lacks.

I call it the doughnut theory - typically for any application you could use a medium bore for, there's a big or small bore that will do it better. There's a hole in the middle in terms of utility. You CAN shoot an Antelope with a .35 Whelen. You can do it better with a .243 or any of a number of small bore magnums. You can shoot an Elk with a .338 WM. You can do it better with a 7mm RM. You can shoot a cape buffalo with a 9.3x62. You can do it better with the .416s, .404J and .458s. The .375s adn 9.3s are somewhat of an exception, because their superior large bore alternatives are very high recoil, and some shooters may be better off with a .375 despite inferior terminal performance.

The only situation I can think of where the medium bores may be uniquely useful is when you want a rifle that's a crossover between big game hunting and bear protection. The medium bore magnums can potentially allow a one rifle, one round solution to those two problems that's slightly superior to what you can get out of a .30.
 
Llama Bob said:
The reality is that with the exception of .35 Remington and .375 H&H, very few medium bores on rifle cases have ever had much market in the US in the smokeless powder era, and there's a darn good reason for that: most of them are less useful then their small and large bore competitors. The 35 Remington is purely a brush play - in terms of capabilities, it offers nothing the .30-30 lacks.

I call it the doughnut theory - typically for any application you could use a medium bore for, there's a big or small bore that will do it better. There's a hole in the middle in terms of utility. You CAN shoot an Antelope with a .35 Whelen. You can do it better with a .243 or any of a number of small bore magnums. You can shoot an Elk with a .338 WM. You can do it better with a 7mm RM. You can shoot a cape buffalo with a 9.3x62. You can do it better with the .416s, .404J and .458s. The .375s adn 9.3s are somewhat of an exception, because their superior large bore alternatives are very high recoil, and some shooters may be better off with a .375 despite inferior terminal performance.

The only situation I can think of where the medium bores may be uniquely useful is when you want a rifle that's a crossover between big game hunting and bear protection. The medium bore magnums can potentially allow a one rifle, one round solution to those two problems that's slightly superior to what you can get out of a .30.
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I agree with you on the cross over thing. I disagree with you that a 7MM is a better elk gun than a .338.
 
It's better and it's not even close. With current best components, it's probably works out to a 200y advantage in the distance where you can 100% guarantee a vitals hit with an elk-suitable bullet operating in its velocity window. Partly that's the inherent advantages that come with a smaller bore (less weight for the same SD and BC) and partly it's because there are components like the Edge TLR that are available in .284 but not .338.
 
Llama Bob said:
It's better and it's not even close. With current best components, it's probably works out to a 200y advantage in the distance where you can 100% guarantee a vitals hit with an elk-suitable bullet operating in its velocity window. Partly that's the inherent advantages that come with a smaller bore (less weight for the same SD and BC) and partly it's because there are components like the Edge TLR that are available in .284 but not .338.
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Assuming your only metric for “better” is a theoretical range advantage. There is a lot more to a “better” elk round than long range capability. In fact I find the new trend towards super long range elk shooting to be a repugnant example of TV show pop culture.

There is nothing wrong with the 7MM. There is a lot wrong with people who buy them thinking that they purchased a magical long range wand of death.
 
Regardless of what your standards are for an ethical shot, the 7mm will outperform the .338 by a handy margin. My personal standard is the range at which I can 100% guarantee a hit on a 12" target with up to 3 MPH of wind call error. And then additionally that the bullet needs suitable terminal performance at the impact velocity.

And there are many high-BC bullets in .284 with excellent terminal performance on elk. The same can not be said for .338.
 
Llama Bob said:
And there are many high-BC bullets in .284 with excellent terminal performance on elk. The same can not be said for .338.
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That is simply not true. I don’t know what your personal metric for an excellent elk bullet or your definition of “high” BC is. There are plenty of perfectly adequate hunting bullets for the .338 diameter that will get the job done well past the range that the vast majority of hunters should be shooting.

If you are talking about shots beyond 600 yards I consider that is inconsequential to my needs.
 
Well, I went and took a look at every single .338 bullet available on Midway, and there were very few bullets with suitable terminal performance for use on elk with G1 BCs of 0.5 or higher. Of the few options that did exist, none of them came close to matching the Edge TLR 155gr in .284.

The only one that looked tempting really was the 250gr Accubond, and it's a bit better than I thought. It would spot "only" about 50y of effective range to a 7mag shooting the Edge TLR assuming equal rifle and shooter accuracy, and do it with "only" about a 50% increase in recoil.

That right there is why no one gets too excited about the medium bores - less reach on the same game, with more recoil, and the Accubond is a little worse in terms of terminal performance than the Edge TLR in close too. The .338 will most definitely work, but it will work strictly worse than the 7mmRM. So if you've already got a .338, great, load up the Accubonds and go hunting and suck it up recoil-wise. But if you're buying a gun there's literally no argument for the .338 without somehow adding dangerous game to the mix.
 
Llama Bob said:
That right there is why no one gets too excited about the medium bores -
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Most people don't get "excited" by them because they don't know how to properly employ them or truly understand them. I can put a 270gr bullet to almost the same point of impact as a 180gr 30-06 at 300y with my 375 H&H. While the 30-06 is plenty for almost everything bin North America, to say that people are not into medium bore cartridges is just silly.
 
Llama Bob said:
Well, I went and took a look at every single .338 bullet available on Midway, and there were very few bullets with suitable terminal performance for use on elk with G1 BCs of 0.5 or higher. Of the few options that did exist, none of them came close to matching the Edge TLR 155gr in .284.

The only one that looked tempting really was the 250gr Accubond, and it's a bit better than I thought. It would spot "only" about 50y of effective range to a 7mag shooting the Edge TLR assuming equal rifle and shooter accuracy, and do it with "only" about a 50% increase in recoil.

That right there is why no one gets too excited about the medium bores - less reach on the same game, with more recoil, and the Accubond is a little worse in terms of terminal performance than the Edge TLR in close too. The .338 will most definitely work, but it will work strictly worse than the 7mmRM. So if you've already got a .338, great, load up the Accubonds and go hunting and suck it up recoil-wise. But if you're buying a gun there's literally no argument for the .338 without somehow adding dangerous game to the mix.[/
https://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/lrx/
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Well Bob let me help you out here with finding some adequate long range .338 bullets.

225 gr TTSX SD .281 BC .514 MV out of my 24" gun 2880 FPS
https://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/ttsx/

250 gr LRX SD.313 BC .602 I haven't shot them out of my rifle so I don't know the velocity but the book shows about 2700 ish
https://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/lrx/

225 gr Nosler Accubond SD 281 BC .550
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/338-winchester-magnum/

250 gr Nosler Accubond BC .575

260 gr Nosler Accubond BC .778

225 gr Hornandy Interbond BC .515
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/#!/

250 gr Sierra Boat Tail BC .565
https://www.sierrabullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/BC-chart-rifle.pdf

225 gr Cutting Edge MTH BC? doesn't say but from the looks of it they are well above .500

225 gr Lazer Tipped Hollow points BC I'm guessing .600 ish
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/338-225gr-lazer-tipped-hollow-point

I'm going to stop there because this is more than an adequate choice of long range elk capable hunting bullets for the .338 Win Mag your choice increase exponentially if you want to move up to a bigger cased .338. And when it comes to strictly working better the only place a 7MM beats it is in recoil. For an overall well rounded elk rifle I'll take a .338 everyday. Strictly speaking of course you are 100% wrong in your statement about a limited choice for high BC elk bullets for the .338.
 
I think that some people want to talk about the great bullets and the great powders that they now use in the smaller caliber rifles, but they won't admit that the medium bore rifles have the same advantage with the reloading components that are available today. There's not an animal in the lower 48 that I would shy away from with my 338-06. I don't take stupid long range shots with my rifles and when I shoot I expect to make a clean one shot kill. I learned how to hunt by watching what happened when a bullet hit an animal, not by reading books and watching TV. If I would have had my 338-06 years ago with the components that I use today I would never have hunted with the smaller caliber rifles.
 
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sage5907 said:
I think that some people want to talk about the great bullets and the great powders that they now use in the smaller caliber rifles, but they won't admit that the medium bore rifles have the same advantage with the reloading components that are available today. There's not an animal in the lower 48 that I would shy away from with my 338-06. I don't take stupid long range shots with my rifles and when I shoot I expect to make a clean one shot kill. I learned how to hunt by watching what happened when a bullet hit an animal, not by reading books and watching TV.
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100% agreed.
 
Weren't the 375 h&h a popular long range target round back in the early days. I think what's more important then the cartridge, to a reasonable size is the accuracy in the field and I believe in having confidence in the round.
 
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