Self defense rifle concepts

Give me the lighter rifle I can carry more ammo one and two I want an optic

Defensive only,. not out to hunt anything, just "defend, disengage, distance" type of thing, then a light, minimum fuss carbine, perhaps even bullpup, out of the way mostly. Red dot, intermediate cartridge, can reach out to 200-300 yards if you absolutely have to, but nothing elaborate or exotic,. 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm. For instance, my BREN 2 MS 7.62x39mm pistol, which of course is not a rifle, but with the Shockwave brace used as a cheekrest, it works well out to 200 yards on man sized targets, is light and handy with the inexpensive SIG MSR green dot, (hence the name, Green Eye'd Goblin), on board. Trying to hit something out to 500 yards, not likely, but this is, again, a DDD firearm, not a battle rifle. It is also quite fun.

The M14, and similar, was a short lived failed experiment. Not that the rifles and 308/7.62X51 cartridge are bad, it's just that the whole concept didn't meet the requirements the worlds militaries needed. At least not as a general purpose rifle to be issues to every soldier. For limited specific purposes they fill a role.

The M16/M4/AR15 family of rifles and the 5.56 cartridge aren't perfect, but for 90% of military, LE, and personal defense needs work just fine.

I'd lean towards the M1A and FAL as being far from inadequate. For general use, they were in some ways almost too much rifle, kind of falling into that "gearing up for the last war" groove. Currently though, they are increasingly hard to come by at a reasonable cost and ammo is getting more expensive, as we no longer have surplus Radway Green available by the case for less than $200. The AK style rifles are an excellent platform, but again, what used to be a sub-$300 rifle will now set you back a grand. The newer PSA AKs might bring a little more sanity back to the AK world and both the 7.62 and 5.45 flavors would work well as a defensive rifle. The AR15 wins the parts availability contest as there are probably fifty different versions of every pin and spring available now. Good mags are not hard to find and ammo is produced domestically in quantity and at a reasonable price in non-election years.

For most purposes the AR platform in 5.56 works fine. I'm talking about using them for over 50 years and using them in serious social situations.

jmr40 said:

The M14, and similar, was a short lived failed experiment. Not that the rifles and 308/7.62X51 cartridge are bad, it's just that the whole concept didn't meet the requirements the worlds militaries needed. At least not as a general purpose rifle to be issues to every soldier. For limited specific purposes they fill a role.
The M16/M4/AR15 family of rifles and the 5.56 cartridge aren't perfect, but for 90% of military, LE, and personal defense needs work just fine.

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I agree, the 7.62x51 was obsolete as it was developed and adopted as a general purpose cartilage. This is something the Germans (towards the end) and Russians got "right" based on average engagement distances encountered in WW2. The intermediate cartridges filled the role for both offensive and defensive use. There are some exceptions, such as OEF due to terrain, but that's what DMRs, crew served and indirect are for.

Besides, this is a thread about SD, which normally implies house hold distances. 5.56/.223 with an expanding or fragmenting bullet is almost perfect.

Also, when it really comes down to it, the thoughts of a bunch of guys on a gun forum don't matter so much...find a 1st world military still using a "battle rifle" today.....

AK-47, because its the only rifle platform I own that has never jammed. EVER!!!

Its hard to beat the AR carbine when it comes to handiness, weight, engagement distances, and ease of use at the closer distances associated with self defense. A "bare bones" lightweight AR carbine with a white light, iron sights, and possibly a co-witnessed red dot sight IMO is the epitome of a KISS defensive carbine.

Self defense rifle concepts as of August 2020 and into the near future that is still available both rifle and ammo that hasn't risen 2x to 3x times in cost? 30-30, still at pre-March prices and available at Walmart still at .75 cents a round.

The train left the station on AR, AK, or most other semi auto , even lever action .38 spcl/.357 or .44 mag ammo is either hard to find or double or triple in price.

30-30 not the ideal home defense or deterrent should a crowd of communist agitators come down the street but for now just saying, available and priced mostly the same as before.....or 45-70 also lol.

lionking said:

30-30 not the ideal home defense or deterrent should a crowd of communist agitators come down the street but for now just saying, available and priced mostly the same as before.....or 45-70 also lol.

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I think lionking's rationale has a lot of merit, assuming you've just started shopping for a new gun in mid-2020.

If you already own a 7.62x51 battle rifle, that may be your only, hence best, choice, but there's none on the LGS shelves here right now unless you count one Century-converted MAS 49/56 in .308 that I wouldn't trust on a bet. There's also a couple Hakim's in 8x57 for sale now, but are you kidding?

I own a 7.62x51 converted M1 Garand that I think highly of, but to my mind it would serve poorly for civilian defensive purposes in an urban setting. My defensive go-to would be my CCW carry handgun because it's always on my person or within easy reach; situation permitting, I'd reach for a PCC, a .223 semiauto, a pump shotgun or even a 10/22 before running the serious risk of over-penetration with M80 ball ammo. My home defense plans involve my neighbors as potential assets rather than collateral casualties.

Now, if I lived in the boondocks with long lines of sight and few neighbors or bystanders, a battle rifle would make pretty good sense. Potential assailants would be arriving by vehicle, so deep FMJ penetration would be a plus rather than a minus. My Garand is a bit long and heavy but it would get the job done.

I think the Lion King is right. I have pushed some of my neighbors towards the 30/30 recently. They were not interested in semi-auto rifles and did not want to get bogged down with all the extras that go with them. Most semi-autos were gone when they were looking anyways. They wanted something simple and affordable. We pawn shopped for some leverguns and found some JM Marlins at a reasonable price. Ammo was one the shelf and at a good price.

Although I make my own, I wish someone would make a factory load with the Speer 130 SP. I can get these to 2500 FPS with ease and they are very lethal on deer. It is kind of sleeper load for the 30/30, but gives you a good trajectory and plenty of FPE's to do the job.

Otherwise as others have said, use what you got and call it good.

I love my 45/70 but it would fall far down on the list for sd/home defense in an urban setting. Lots of good hunting guns will work but recoil matters and a lever in 45 colt would be waaaaay better

When I think about defense I think about the longest hallway in my home. Any shot on a human beyond that would be difficult to defend in court. I understand the importance of my life and my loved ones’ lives in the moment versus the consequences, but the reality is I will eventually have to defend my actions. So the way I’m understanding the proposal is a home defense situation.

In that case, I want something light and short with a red dot and a white light. A 30-round mag is a plus, they are cheap and easy to acquire in my state and nobody ever complained of having too much ammo. My personal bedside gun is a 8” 300 BLK pistol with an Aimpoint CompM2 and a SureFire light (momentary tail cap). I keep it loaded with 30 rounds of Hornady 190 gr Sub-X. I sort of live in the country, my closest neighbor is about 100 yards away and it’s only my wife and I in the house, so I’m not too worried about over penetration.

There are many, many more options and parameters to consider, but for in the house, that’s what I have. As always, any gun is better than no gun.

Defensive rifle = AR. At least for me.

I have a few to pick from. OK, I have 3. A pistol, an SBR, and a 18". These are the obvious choice for me. I spend 28 years in the Army so there is a serious second nature factor here in the muscle memory. I went to war with these guns 3 times, so it's just what I think of for defense right off the bat. There're what I'm best with, and fastest with. It's like I'm Quirt Evans in "Angel, and the Bad Man" reaching for my revolver... I reach for my AR.

The pistol, and SBR both have red dot sights, and the 18" a LPVO that can be used almost as a red dot. This is very important to me in a defensive weapon. I prefer the straight up red dot over the LPVO, as any scope can have scope shadow that will slow you down when you are panicked, and scared, and don't get your face in the right place because you screw up, or are in an awkward firing position. NOTHING beats a red dot for personal defense.

I also have a couple of others... odd choices that others may not think of as defensive rifles. A lever gun, and a bolt gun. In today's political times, it makes sense to have something to travel with, in case I need to go to where I can't bring an AR... Some of the less free states have really restrictive laws.

If you think about it, the lever gun, and the bolt gun were the choice defensive weapon of their time.

I started with a Rossi 92 in .44 magnum. It had a 24" octagon barrel, that I had cut to 17". A big loop lever was added, and a rear peep sight that replaces the bolt safety. A section of picatinny rail is on the top flat of the barrel where the rear sight was, allowing me to mount a red dot sight, and a light. Still holds 10+1, and the .44 mag out of a 17" barrel is pretty potent. It's also very fun to run the combat cowboy carbine. Very fun.



In similar fashion, I did up a Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 by having the barrel shortened to 16.5". The front sight was moved back, and the front of the barrel threaded for a Surefire Warcomp. A custom mount is press fit on the barrel and held in place on the dimpled barrel by set screws for the red dot sight, then I re-worked the wood to keep the original flavor except the buttstock I replaced with a pistol grip style. Now it's practically a bolt action SOCOM 16... The fast Lee Enfield action works very well, and the 10 round magazine is a good thing for defensive use.



Both of these use the red dot I love so much, and they are very fast on target. I actually enjoy shooting these more than my ARs. Not saying I'd take these over an AR to go to war with, but they would do... I have a lot of practicing to do with the Lee Enfield yet though as its a recent build.

Agreed that 308s are just too much rifle for SD.

300 yards is about the shortest range when you could start to justify a 308 over a 223, and the problem is that you'd be hard-pressed to find a justified reason to shoot in self-defense anywhere beyond 50. Realistically, it's probably half that. If an M1A's what you've got, it beats a sharp stick or harsh language, but if you're starting from scratch and dropping $1500 to get a SD gun, there's just so many better choices.

Plenty of great choices out there...

But if I wanna raise some pulses, an AK47 just has that fear factor to the average vermin.

WOLVERINES!

I’ll take whatever is closest when the time comes depending on where I’m at in the house. Might be my Benelli, One if my AR’s from .223-450BM, might be a M1-A or Garand. Could even be a trapdoor or rolling block from on the mantle. Maybe even be a Kodiak double in 45-70.

Being dependent on a single rifle can leave you defenseless if something doesn’t go according to preparations. Always have a back up. Or 10.

Personally, I want a 9mm magnum, or 10mm magnum lock breach autoloading rifle. That feels like (if its reliable) the ideal weapon for home defense. Since i dont know anyone who makes that, Ive got a hi-point 9mm, and an AR-15 in .350L that can serve if needed. Equally, if the first gun I lay hands on is a .300wm, or my .375....well.....

Mosin Bubba said:

Agreed that 308s are just too much rifle for SD.

300 yards is about the shortest range when you could start to justify a 308 over a 223, and the problem is that you'd be hard-pressed to find a justified reason to shoot in self-defense anywhere beyond 50. Realistically, it's probably half that. If an M1A's what you've got, it beats a sharp stick or harsh language, but if you're starting from scratch and dropping $1500 to get a SD gun, there's just so many better choices.

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I agree about the part that you can't justify a long shot as self defense.

I disagree, however, that shooting a dirtbag... at close range with a powerful weapon... is too much.

Just because you have a weapon capable of firing long distance, doesn't mean it has to be employed in that manor...

30-30 not the ideal home defense or deterrent should a crowd of communist agitators come down the street but for now just saying, available and priced mostly the same as before.....or 45-70 also lol

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Nope, COVID Zombies...

What works for one person may well not work for another. In an urban setting a PCC may be a great choice. For the rural northern Midwest, a .30 caliber manual action may serve much better. "Self Defense" and "rifle" don't quite go together like peas and carrots, in my opinion. At least not in this society.

All to funny awhile back was a picture of a dude with every conceivable gadget mounted on & to an AR -somethin Blah Blah .. zombie gun.....

Thing looked ridiculous

Space Ghost said:

I disagree, however, that shooting a dirtbag... at close range with a powerful weapon... is too much.
Just because you have a weapon capable of firing long distance, doesn't mean it has to be employed in that manor...

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I agree in principle, but for close combat with 7.62 NATO I'd personally want ammo with a reliable, accurate frangible bullet and those are expensive hen's teeth even in normal times:
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/27586 https://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/tac-rrlp/

BTW, commercial .308 Winchester soft point hunting ammo will still be prone to overpenetration after close-in dirtbag penetration.

A 5.56/.223 would be more appropriate if overkill is desired: FMJs usually fragment after impact at 3000+ fps. Shooting 5.56 indoors without hearing protection won't be doing your eardrums any favors -- better keep a set of electronic muffs next to your rifle!

WrongHanded said:

What works for one person may well not work for another. In an urban setting a PCC may be a great choice. For the rural northern Midwest, a .30 caliber manual action may serve much better. "Self Defense" and "rifle" don't quite go together like peas and carrots, in my opinion. At least not in this society.

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"Self defense, and rifle" absolutely go together. Maybe not in your opinion, but in effective fighting circles everywhere else they do. This is why every army in the world uses a rifle as it's basic issue tool for the soldier, and not a handgun... the soldiers are all defending themselves from the enemy... the best round to kill another human with is always going to be a rifle round.

The only reason on God's green Earth we ever carry a hand gun is because of convenience. A hand gun is smaller, lighter, easier to hide, and can fit in a holster so you don't have to hold it in your hands, or sling it across your back when doing daily tasks. Let's face it, walking around with a rifle all day, every day is a PITA... That's why people carry a pistol.

The rifle is a far more powerful weapon, and will stop a threat better... every time. It offers better control because of how you shoot it. You have 4 points of contact with the weapon when firing. Both hands, your cheek, and your shoulder, so it's much more stable. (accurate) The longer barrel, and sight radius also makes for better accuracy. It points at the target much more naturally.

As you stated... Maybe not in this "society" (as in to walk around with every day) but when you feel threatened, yes, the rifle is the better (as in more effective at stopping the threat) defensive tool.

Dave DeLaurant said:

I agree in principle, but for close combat with 7.62 NATO I'd personally want ammo with a reliable, accurate frangible bullet and those are expensive hen's teeth even in normal times:
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/prod...n-rws-110gr-nontoxic-lead-free-frangible-ammo

BTW, commercial .308 Winchester soft point hunting ammo will still be prone to overpenetration after close-in dirtbag penetration.

A 5.56/.223 would be more appropriate if overkill is desired: FMJs usually fragment after impact at 3000+ fps. Shooting 5.56 indoors without hearing protection won't be doing your eardrums any favors -- better keep a set of electronic muffs next to your rifle!

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There is no way in hell I, or any sane person would want a frangible round as a 1st choice in a defensive round... Why would you do that? These rounds are designed NOT to penetrate. A bullet has to penetrate to reach the vitals and stop the threat.

Reminds me of a video I saw once... "I'd like a non-penetrating penetrateor please."

Don't worry about "overkill" When you are trying to save your own life, or the life of your family... you shouldn't give a rat's ass about the life of the evil bad guy you're shooting at... They can't possibly be too dead.

Don't worry about "over penetration" either. You can't have it both ways.

You have to penetrate to stop them,
and if you don't penetrate enough you won't stop them.
Either way is a danger... SO STOP THEM.

Yes, firing off an AR inside a structure is loud AF. Done it many times. Try it inside a vehicle. If you can have electronic hearing protection on your nightstand, go for it. (if you have the time) You probably won't though. Bad guys rarely give you advance warning, so in the words of Tuco... "When you have to shoot... shoot." Don't worry about you ears ringing. You won't even notice it till it's over, and hearing loss in cumulative, so protect you hearing all the other times you go shooting... Protect your LIFE in the moment. That probably means don't take that extra 30 seconds screwing around with the muffs first... Grab the rifle...