NY hunters, Bow season and crossbows.

I would say that people probably feel that they provide an unfair advantage over over traditional and compound bows. They often have a scope for example. I don’t have a problem with people using them but perhaps they should have their own season or just used during modern firearms season.

I see your speaking about New York specifically but I think what I said applies across the board.

Two issues, I figure. The first is kind of petty: folks going trad always have a little devil on their shoulder telling them that anyone less trad than they are is kind of a cheat. Think of longbow guys vs. recurve guys, or even selfbow guys looking at laminated longbow guys.

The other reason can be more significant. If the point of an archery season (or a muzzleloader season, for that matter) is to allow early/easier access for those with a much lower chance at tagging out, then any weapon which significantly increases those chances really is a bit of a cheat. It's my impression that both bow and muzzleloader seasons were developed at a time when a 20 yard shot and a 100 yard shot, respectively, were considered about the max for reasonable men. Applying modern technology to those endeavors has resulted in 100 and 200 yard shots, again respectively, which in turn leads some folks to question why special seasons need to exist at all.

daniel craig said:

In my area a 20-50 yard shot with a crossbow or traditional bow is about all you can expect. Personally I think bow season should be open for anyone using any kind of non bullet projectile. Spear, bow, crossbow whatever. There’s enough tags and enough deer that even if a few more people used crossbows and tagged out there’s still plenty left for the regular bow hunters.

Crossbow would increase availability for handicapped/mobility impaired persons to have just as long of a season as everyone else.

Click to expand...

Oh, I don't really have a dog in this fight. Lots of reasonable points on both sides of the argument. If I have any beef at all with crossbows it's that the only time anyone has ever managed to point a "loaded" bow at me on the range, it was a crossbow. It's my opinion that "standard" rules at the archery range are inadequate for crossbows and that such ranges need to be run like rifle ranges if crossbows are to be allowed.

On the other hand, the only crap I've ever taken while bowhunting was from a trad fellow who implied that I was doing it wrong because I was using carbon arrows with my Howard Hill longbow!

I use old school aluminum arrows with my “trad” recurve. That is strictly speaking, non traditional. I also use a crossbow on occasion.

As to crossbows, I want to say it is a revenue enhancement item for state game departments but many depts don’t separate out archery and firearms tags these days.

One state I am familiar with passed crossbow legislation and then went to the species only tags the same year so that doesn’t fit really either.

I’m sure they sell a few more tags per year and maybe even lure in some out of staters for those big money tags but it can’t be that much.

Many folks are against crossbows because it takes away from the spirit of archery.....or at least a few people’s definition of spirit.

Was a competitive archer for many years. Have shot crossbow for most of my hunting for about ten years as my elbows simply will not take it anymore shooting a compound.

When in my prime 50 yards , under decent conditions , was an ethical shot on deer. Depending on conditions , wind mostly, maybe only 20 to 30 yards. Drilled a couple of hogs at around 60 yards, but, they don't jump the string. It takes a premium setup and tons of practice to reach that level. People that say it is easy and they can do it naturally are full of it.

Switching to crossbows does have some advantages. However they are not always as huge as everyone thinks. Wind drift still is a huge issue. My crossbow hits around 320 fps and it is not hugely better in the wind than my 275 fps compound. The crossbows that hit 400 fps are better ,but, no matter what you do the wind still beats up arrows. No matter what you are shooting if you are going to be shooting past 50 yards preparation is key. You better shoot your crossbow , bolt, broahead combination at every range you p,an to shoot at a lot. Small variations make huge differences. Changing a string and you start over. Better shoot in cold weather if you did your research in warm weather. Your point of impact will change. It may be huge maybe not.

The two big advantages to the crossbow are the scope and that it takes less practice.. The better you can see the better you can aim. It really foes take much less practice to develop skills with a crossbow. However it does take some. Out to 30 or 40 yards it is easy for a average rifle shooter to use a crossbow. After that it gets harder. For every ten yards you increase it takes twice as much practice to get there.

I have never seen any definitive proof that crossbows are 100 yard hunting tools except under near lab conditions. What I found, after shooting a lot of them, is that 60 yards is good upper limit for for a decent set up under average conditions.

These are just my ramblings. Feel free to disagree.

stringnut said:

Was a competitive archer for many years. Have shot crossbow for most of my hunting for about ten years as my elbows simply will not take it anymore shooting a compound.

When in my prime 50 yards , under decent conditions , was an ethical shot on deer. Depending on conditions , wind mostly, maybe only 20 to 30 yards. Drilled a couple of hogs at around 60 yards, but, they don't jump the string. It takes a premium setup and tons of practice to reach that level. People that say it is easy and they can do it naturally are full of it.

Switching to crossbows does have some advantages. However they are not always as huge as everyone thinks. Wind drift still is a huge issue. My crossbow hits around 320 fps and it is not hugely better in the wind than my 275 fps compound. The crossbows that hit 400 fps are better ,but, no matter what you do the wind still beats up arrows. No matter what you are shooting if you are going to be shooting past 50 yards preparation is key. You better shoot your crossbow , bolt, broahead combination at every range you p,an to shoot at a lot. Small variations make huge differences. Changing a string and you start over. Better shoot in cold weather if you did your research in warm weather. Your point of impact will change. It may be huge maybe not.

The two big advantages to the crossbow are the scope and that it takes less practice.. The better you can see the better you can aim. It really foes take much less practice to develop skills with a crossbow. However it does take some. Out to 30 or 40 yards it is easy for a average rifle shooter to use a crossbow. After that it gets harder. For every ten yards you increase it takes twice as much practice to get there.

I have never seen any definitive proof that crossbows are 100 yard hunting tools except under near lab conditions. What I found, after shooting a lot of them, is that 60 yards is good upper limit for for a decent set up under average conditions.

These are just my ramblings. Feel free to disagree.

Click to expand...

I have next to no crossbow experience and am only repeating advertising copy. I compete with a recurve and hunt with a longbow, so I look down on compound users, let alone crossbow men!

<edit> Thank you for the real-world experience, though. I suspected that the 100 yard claims for crossbows might be optimistic, but really had no way to know.

I’ve never shot a compound for any real length of time. Just traditional style recurves. (I have thought about the Fred Eichler Hoyt though). When crossbows were allowed in MI my dad sold a gun to get one. I had to roll my eyes at him (at the time). However, he had retired and wanted to hunt more. He had shot compounds in the past but he was 62 and said he wasn’t up to staying in practice.

I had to agree with him. It made plenty of sense. Now I use one too.

Crossbows had been legal in MI during archery season for folks who unfortunately had certain physical disabilities.

.38 Special said:

I have next to no crossbow experience and am only repeating advertising copy. I compete with a recurve and hunt with a longbow, so I look down on compound users, let alone crossbow men!

<edit> Thank you for the real-world experience, though. I suspected that the 100 yard claims for crossbows might be optimistic, but really had no way to know.

Click to expand...

I find that many long bow and recurve shooters look down on compound shooters. Never understood the attitude. Even using a self bow is a technology advancement over an atl atl, which is an advancement over a spear. To get back to basics you have to go to teeth and hands! Anything beyond that is using technology.
I , on the other hand, will use the most modern equipment allowed. I use an in line muzzleloader during blackpowder, a crossbow or modern compound during archery, and a scoped center fire during firearm. When death rays are invented and legal I will be standing in line.

However everyone should feel free to enjoy hunting as they interpret it. I have nothing against someone using the fastest, hardest recoiling cannon they can purchase with a 24x scope to shoot 150 lb white tails at 30 yards. I simply cannot take the recoil and am to cheap to pay what the scope would cost!

Remember this is all in good fun. Most primitive bow shooters I know are great people that are proud of their sport.

Lots of different reasons, but I think the big one is envy.

When a Prius driver gets his doors blown off by a muscle car.....secretly he'd like to own one too, but since he can't afford it the next best thing is to denigrate it.

I’d use one if I had it!
Until such time I’ll just have to hold my compound while I blow stalks and watch deer run away from me.

No matter what, SOMEONE is going to have an issue with anyone hunting anything in a more modern manner than whoever is having the issue. That goes for hunting implements, style of hunting, etc. IMO, any mechanical or technical advantage beyond whatever early humans did with their new opposable thumbs makes any quarry grossly undermatched. I imagine the first deer humans ate were found dead from some other cause, making the "original deer hunters" opportunistic scavengers, but that is just a guess. No thanks. As for me, I'm sticking with Xbow (with red dot sight) for all archery hunting, with 2020-2021 being my 4th season. Its the only way I know how to launch an arrow, I taught myself how to do it (with some help from youtube), and I can't pull a bowstring anyway because someone who didn't like me very much shot me in the right forearm in afg. a few years back. Based on this, the state of Fl is OK with me hunting with Xbow during any archery season, state-wide.

Rembrandt said:

Lots of different reasons, but I think the big one is envy.

When a Prius driver gets his doors blown off by a muscle car.....secretly he'd like to own one too, but since he can't afford it the next best thing is to denigrate it.

Click to expand...

You might not believe how much a top level Olympic recurve costs. And a serious competitor needs two identical ones...

At any rate, I am pretty enthusiastic about traditional weapons, whether they are bows or guns. I actually handicap myself quite a bit with things like Hill style longbows and faithful replicas of 300 year old flintlocks. And I truly do believe that folks should be free to use whatever legal weapons they like, including the latest technology in bows and inlines. Yet I still have that little devil on my shoulder that wants me to tell compound shooters and inline shooters and everyone else who isn't doing it exactly like I am that they are doing it wrong. It's a low impulse and I am embarrased about it, but it still is there. And I honestly have no idea why it exists.

Different strokes for different folks.

I enjoy recurves to get away from the gadget and doo dad culture of compounds. I worked at a store that sold archery gear and I am a casual golfer and can say these two activities attract the same type of folks. Many (not all) believe they can gadget and gizmo their way to better play. More hours of practice or getting professional instruction never even enter the brain.

Once again though, I use a crossbow. I have one of those shorty Excaliburs (recurve haha, I still don’t use a compound) so there are a few gadgets but I have only bought bolts and broadheads in addition to the crossbow “package” which did include a scope among other things.

I've been a bowhunter for over half a century. Took my first buck with a recurve @ 14 back in 1968. Back then, crossbows were illegal and a known tool of poachers......like baiting. Because of this, there was a very deeply embedded negative sentiment towards both, that has lasted till this day. Today, I use a crossbow, but if I could, I'd still use a regular compound. But a crossbow allows me to continue to hunt during archery season. Years ago, crossbows were thought to give folks a unfair disadvantage. When used legally, they really give no more advantage than a compound. With the increase of deer populations and a decrease in licenses sold, crossbows have become an important tool for deer management. Don't like 'em, don't use 'em. I wonder how many folks that whine about crossbows, sit over a bait pile?

I avoided getting one for a long time, but then gave in and bought a cheap one just to see what the rage was. I quickly found out two things. First, they are not death rays, so they are pretty much restricted to the same practical limits as compound bows. Second, where they offer an advantage is not having to hold a draw. The benefit is that a stronger person can draw them and a less muscular person can hunt with them. I have since bought a second one because I want to help kids, women, inexperienced but teachable people, etc... learn to hunt. Crossbows and ar15s are both denigrated but both of them serve that purpose perfectly.

My perspective from Georgia. NY may well be very different.

When I started bow hunting in the 1970's long bow's and recurve bows were all that were legal. Compound bows and crosbows were not legal until sometime in the early 1980's. Georgia was the LAST state to legalize compound bows, crossbows only became legal a few years ago. But in those days there were more hunters, far fewer deer, shorter seasons, baiting was illegal and we had limited bag limits. Fish and Wildlife officers enforced the laws vigorously. Using archery gear was supposed to be harder to limit the number hunters and the number of deer taken.

Today there are far fewer hunters, far more deer, much longer seasons, and generous bag limits. In an effort to attract more hunters, and increase income from license sales we now allow crossbows, baiting, and with reduced funding for game wardens you almost never see one.

Personally, I still really prefer the simplicity of my old recurve and the gear that goes with it. But to stay proficient requires almost year round practice. I can pick up my compound and make good shots with the 1st arrow after months of no practice. SOME people still look down on crossbows as too modern and don't think they should be used during archery seasons. I don't feel that way. While I don't own one, and don't want one. If it gets someone else to buy a license then they are welcome to hunt as far as I'm concerned. In 1980 I wouldn't have felt the same.

So, the short of it is really about access and seasons. Crossbows get more people into archery season, harvest goes up, and hunting opportunities will go down. Plus people who worked hard practicing to shoot a regular bow are usually not as accurate as a novice crossbow shooter and feel it is unfair.

So for the long. I can give a little perspective from what I experienced in Illinois. Years ago I was involved in lobbying efforts with the state legislature dealing with hunting laws and public lands access. (Crossbows, handguns, public parks, and culling have been very difficult subjects as deer populations grew, peaked, and declined due to a bunch of reasons.)

Crossbows have been a big sore spot for archery hunters for a long time. People argued (quite successfully for decades) that archery seasons were supposed to be more a recreation or hobby than management tool. Success rates were generally low so offering unlimited access to tags and hunting opportunities wouldn't have a negative effect on overall resources. You could offer a long season and sell a bunch of tags without too much complaint from the general population of gun hunters.

Bowhunters usually had open access to prime public lands which were limited draw for very short 3 day weekend gun seasons. There wasn't too much overlap for a long time as learning to shoot a bow proficiently required much more practice than a gun and was a very close range affair.

Sure there were hiccups but overall the situation was okay until archery success rates and participation numbers went up dramatically. This was really a result of the huge increase in reliable safe commerically available treestands and the giant improvement in compound bow technology. Where in the past bowhunting was a small segment of hunters with low harvests, it is often now directly comparable with gun seasons in number of participants and deer killed.

Seasons are still long and tags readily available, but the practice barrier is mostly gone by comparison to the past. The archery fields are much more crowded and many of the people who flocked to the turnkey compound tech are feeling threatened by gun hunters pushing to let them participate with a crossbow. The argument is the crossbow is too easy to reach competence and is a longer range weapon more comparable to a slug gun than the longbow of yore (though kind of silly since almost all bowhunters use compound bows now.)

When compound bows came on the scene, people bemoaned how unfairly easy they were to use. By the late 1990s recurves and longbows were quaint niche of 'traditional' (old tech) shooters who represent very few hunters and no longer have any real clout or control of hunting seasons. Compound bow hunters see the writing on the wall and understand a repeat is coming with the liberalization of crossbows. In another 10 years vertical bow use is going to be small in comparison. People who feel like they have worked hard to master this tool are being pushed aside by hunters with a vastly superior tool. They have access to the same long early seasons and plentiful tags.

The current vocal bowhunting proponents are very worried a large number of previous gun hunters will by an inexpensive accurate crossbow and crowd into the early seasons. This will drive up the deer harvest during that time and force the state DNR to rein in overharvest with the same types of rules which limit gun season like draw quotas and shortened days afield. If that were to happen, the entire sport would be different and lose its appeal to the 'less crowds' 'more time in nature' adherents and become just another weekend of pumpkin armies.

I have shot trad off and on for 30 years.
Like compounds just fine, releases too.

While there are tradtards around, most of the people I know that shoot recurves and longbows see it as a PERSONAL choice and are cool with all hand delivered arrow devices.

So no, aint gonna blame the X bow dislike of the trad group.

Archery is a tool for deer control.
X bows up the efficiency.

I have zero problem w older/injured folks using an X bow, there were provisions for that in my state before they allowed it for anybody in the archery season.

Bow sales have tanked. One X bow can work for multiple family members.
And with the increased efficiency and more people using them, there could very well be changes made to the length/timing of archery seasons.

Aint nothing ever free.

Warned people about this X bow deal, they didn't listen.

Having worked in gun and bow retail, will say I have heard of folks going to X bow because it's just easier, doesn't require as much practice............and increases their range.......and quite a few times I've heard em say they've seen a good deer and want to shoot it before the regular bowhunter guy next door does.

Yup, competition and taking the easier way........some folks are willing to pay for that.
As if a big buck by X bow is bragging rights.

Had a few buds that got old on me, former bowhunters, became X bow hunters. They used em, high dollar rigs too...........but hated them.
Buddy got a new X caliber, said it was neat to stack em in at 50 yards. Hunted one season and went back to vertical bow.

X bows are awkward and some just won't put up with that.

I have a kid with health issues. I'd have to cock the X bow for her, she'd have to shoot from a ground blind w a tripod.
Yup, if she wants one I'll buy her one.

Am not against X bow usage, just don't like lazy people.
X bow caters to the immediate gratification society of today.

Heaven forbid somebody have to work at something to become proficient.
Can't have a kid shoot a low # bow for a yr or two, then graduate to legal hunting weight.

Nope, we gotta let kids shoot deer while still wearing diapers and put it on Youtube.

Talked to some pro shops..........some had X bow sales at 50% last yr.
Know of one that did no program orders w 2 of the big name companies this yr and may ONLY carry X bows next yr.
If they don't shut down their archery department all together.

See 300-500 dollar X bows at farm and sporting goods chain stores.

What % of the X bow hunting market those are?

If my kid wants one, cheapest I'd go is Mathews Mission. Not cheap.
Alas, her health such that she could only hunt early season, as temp changes etc really affect her.

I have arthritis in spine, genetic shoulder issues, and broke a wrist and ripped tendons.
Have qualified for handicap X bow from way back.
Missed a shooting party this weekend, as too sore to shoot my bow.
And what do I use?
A recurve.
Because I see deer hunting as a sport.
I kill deer, don't harvest them.
And I hunt for me, not to get some endorsement or braggin rights.
My spot now not as good as my old one, so when hunting smaller deer.........make it more interesting.
Use cool guns and bows.

If I ran an X bow it's be too easy.

I think mandating practice/work keeps the sport noble.

Cannot stand the Outdoor channel's general programming or the stuff on YT. The way it's presented. Don't care for feeders or bait, but if that's legal in your area, do as you wish.

Am not some hippie that communes with nature by camping in a tree. I have a purpose afield and that is to kill. Have passed on many, but worked to get such opportunities.

How one approaches their deer hunting is their own business.
But I do think that folks are kinda cheating the sport, and probably doing similar at work and home.

Bowhunting used to show a folks character. Not always for the good either.

Have seen horrible shooters with wheels and trad, and slob hunters. Gear doesn't make up for that, and is no excuse for it either. But these same types suck when gun hunting too.

Too many just don't care.

And it aint just when hunting.

Thankfully most folks are decent. We need more of them though.
X bow may have gotten some lesser folks into the woods.

Time will tell.

I shot a lot of archery for about 20 yrs.
Sport continued to grow and the average shooter changed.
That and an injury, said enough is enough.
No more indoors, no more 3d.

Nope, just shoot trad in the yard or with a bud and relax, enjoy what little I can.

Looking at a Samick Discovery and some carbon limbs maybe, keep my 54# widow but get something lighter.

Work is hard on me and I blew an elbow last yr hanging a stand. The Covid layoff may have allowed it to heal.
But now there are other problems LOL

Getting old aint for sissies.
I am more of a bow hunter than deer hunter. But I am a deer hunter.

If I can't go bow there's always gun season.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I had big bucks around, larger area to hunt. Maybe I'd go X bow on a target animal.
Maybe not.

Have always wanted a P&Y by recurve. Bucket list kinda thing.
My luck so bad, the day I'd take an X bow I'd have a record book deer at 15 yards wide open.