Even the NYT admits normal people are driving sales up

I am, of course, very pro second amendment. I, of course, think folks should have every ability to protect they and theirs.

All that said it makes me sad we are at a point where it is less about sport/hobby/fun and more about serious social reasons. I pray to God that ultimately this brings more voters to the table, takes firearms off the political list and most of all that we see our way back to sport/fun/hobby.

I hear you. I had a conversation with a major magazine gun editor quite a few years ago. He was highly educated man with a PhD in History, IIRC. He said he would love to publish technical articles about sports and hunting. However, those covers didn't sell. As I said elsewhere, a cover with a Swiss made Hammerli 280 competition pistol in S&W .32 long wad cutter didn't sell. A cover with the giant ultimate man stopper did sell.

hso said:

That clearly isn't borne out by the studies. The vast majority of the time the presence of a firearm deters violence without being fired. Only in the exceptionally rare instances does anyone harm themselves or others they don't intend to harm. While I'm a vocal advocate for training, I've had to accept the studies that it isn't essential to be well trained for a firearm to be defensively beneficial.

Click to expand...

Also keep in mind the VAST amount of resources at our fingertips that didn’t exist so much as 20 years ago.

Folks can google/YouTube etc. a great deal of practical knowledge and safety practices out of the gate. This is not a substitute for actual range time/training etc. but it is certainly a great deal more info then the VAST majority of gun owners and shooters had three decades ago.

I would posit that the average new gun owner is better prepared then at most any other time in history and is likely more prepared to handle and treat firearms safely.

I mean sure there are plenty of folks who just what a gun to throw in the sock drawer but we are a far more information driven society at least as far as products are concerned today.

cslinger said:

Also keep in mind the VAST amount of resources at our fingertips that didn’t exist so much as 20 years ago.

Folks can google/YouTube etc. a great deal of practical knowledge and safety practices out of the gate. This is not a substitute for actual range time/training etc. but it is certainly a great deal more info then the VAST majority of gun owners and shooters had three decades ago.

I would posit that the average new gun owner is better prepared then at most any other time in history and is likely more prepared to handle and treat firearms safely.

I mean sure there are plenty of folks who just what a gun to throw in the sock drawer but we are a far more information driven society at least as far as products are concerned today.

Click to expand...

The firearms themselves are probably safer as well. Virtually any modern handgun can be dropped when loaded and not discharge (although not recommended). Factory ammunition is amazingly reliable. I also think the relative lack of thumb safeties on autoloaders makes them safer (you never treat the firearm as if it is 'safe' - it is always 'hot'). A Glock-style handgun is about as simple and safe as an autoloader can be, IMO. Perfect for the first-time gun-owner.

hso said:

That clearly isn't borne out by the studies. Only in the exceptionally rare instances does anyone harm themselves or others they don't intend to harm. .

Click to expand...

Interesting, I did not know about these studies and results. Counterintuitive.

I think the emphasis on training comes from some vivid instances where things go badly and probably wouldn't have, if the defender had some reasonable training. The failures happen when the incident is more extreme. The classic DGU as from Kleck where the simple presentation of the gun resolves it well, doesn't have much chance of going wrong. Given human psychology the probability of an occurrence is over estimated if the incident is vivid.

It's like the 5 is enough argument. It's the extreme that is the problem.

P5 Guy said:

LOL! Read the 'comments'. All are "How terrible is this?"

Click to expand...

So much ignorance

pairof44sp said:

Any “secondary” panic buyers out there?

I went insane and bought up guns and primers in a panic, because I saw the market going crazy and everything I wanted to buy was disappearing or doubling in price.

I didn’t actually fear that protestors were going to come get me.

Click to expand...

They aren’t.

The people, including some in this thread, using threat inflation and uncommon events to openly fantasize about the inevitability, the desirability of the near total devastation of Civil War should be ashamed. It’s calm in most places including most that had protests.

These folks, I’m not sure what they want or why they want it but it’s ugly and it’s the end of things as we know them- and for nothing.

Can we turn away from "Civil War" and look at the positive of expanding folks who appreciate having a firearm? This is a hint before a close. Don't need a projection from Fox or MSNBC to see this coming.

I’m with you on that.

I took two Democrats shooting tonight, one a new 2020 gun owner (CZ and PSA) and one who had never shot before.

I brought an XDm-9 with a Venom 6moa and a DD M4 V7 with a romeo5. I’m thinking these guys outshot me, I’m blaming it on glasses

I don’t want our rights tied to one lousy party, I’m a Dem who works to teach anyone that the 2A is a cherished Birthright. I know we may argue but I love guns and shooters are my people.

Necessary_Nutrient said:

Normal people- those who don't believe Civil War is coming and/or openly fap over it- are a great addition to our arsenal to defend 2A rights and it's NOT a good idea to tie this to one party. That's what the NYT times is saying- the 2A cuts across all stripes of the political landscape and I believe that all politicians should divorce 2A from the rest of their platform.

Click to expand...

Well said. This is a great time for prior non-gun owners to understand how anti-gun laws only punish law-abiders. It's a great time to REASONABLY argue for gun rights as basic liberties. This is beyond the politics of the NRA, and either party. The ATF is still here and neither candidate is addressing it as the elephant in the room.

Ernie Bass said:

Interesting article in Military.com and fear of a Marxist revolution.


I had to laugh as well. You might not use the word Civil War, but total chaos or Revolution is believed by many including top ranked Military. A fallen economy, open borders, more Antif and BLM attacks and growing, defunding of police and on and on and on. Yes, this, the people in this Country do not all have our head in the ground. Regardless, here is the letter, you be the judge.

https://cdn.donaldjtrump.com/public...ary-leaders-endorse-president-trump-final.pdf

Click to expand...

LEO + military coming together to back Trump... who signed off on Red-Flag laws.

Just remember, when they come to take your guns, LEO and military will be carrying out the orders. Bet you'll wish LEO had less power when that happens. You'll be begging them to disobey orders.

I'm 100% sure this post will be removed.

GEM said:

Can we turn away from "Civil War" and look at the positive of expanding folks who appreciate having a firearm? This is a hint before a close. Don't need a projection from Fox or MSNBC to see this coming.

Click to expand...

I think it's awesome. It can only serve to strengthen constitutional awareness.

I live in the Catskill Mountains area of New York State. The village of Woodstock is in my county. I am a frequent visitor to the Pistol Permit Division of the County Sheriff's Office because we have to do paperwork every time we buy or sell a handgun. (That's registration for you, folks.) According to the deputies and clerks there, every time there's talk of new gun restrictions they get a flood of permit applications from what one deputy called "the Woodstock woo-woos" -- people who are into crystals and herbal medicine and all kinds of other New Age stuff, what we used to call "hippies," although that terms sounds too dated. Anyway, the deputy I spoke to said that nothing makes them want something more than telling them they can't have it.

Gun ownership is a bigger tent than it sometimes seems.

Laggy said:

LEO + military coming together to back Trump... who signed off on Red-Flag laws.

Just remember, when they come to take your guns, LEO and military will be carrying out the orders. Bet you'll wish LEO had less power when that happens. You'll be begging them to disobey orders.

I'm 100% sure this post will be removed.

Click to expand...

Laggy said:

LEO + military coming together to back Trump... who signed off on Red-Flag laws.

Just remember, when they come to take your guns, LEO and military will be carrying out the orders. Bet you'll wish LEO had less power when that happens. You'll be begging them to disobey orders.

I'm 100% sure this post will be removed.

Click to expand...

Deleted. Not worth responding to.

Surprise

GEM said:

I had a conversation with a major magazine gun editor quite a few years ago. He was highly educated man with a PhD in History, IIRC.

Click to expand...

Jan Libourel?

As for the OP, I would note that the gun sales numbers must be astounding for the MSM -- especially the NYT -- to recognize -- and print articles -- about all the new, including Democrat/liberal/socialist, gun buyers.

I, for one, am truly gratified that so many folks are acknowledging the necessity to own the most effective means of self/home/family defense possible (firearms). Celebrate diversity!

Maybe this will bring us all closer together?

Ernie Bass said:

Deleted. Not worth responding to.

Click to expand...

Go. I’m just saying that LEO reform in the form of demilitarizing is a good thing. I choose not to connect police reform to BLM/Antifa etc. Literally nothing to do with each other for me. Police reform has been on my radar before this past summer. Civil asset forfeiture, no-knock warrants, red flag laws. Not cool by me. And if they ever come for guns, I just don’t trust most LEO’s to refuse bad orders.

My 2nd point, is it’s difficult to say that Trump protected my rights, when he signs off on Red Flag Seizure Laws. It’s like saying “Oh I don’t drink or do drugs. I just like to speedball heroin and cocaine from a rusty AIDS needle”.

Red flag laws, overarching Patriot Act laws are stop-gap measures that give insane amounts of unconstitutional power to LEOs. It’s sad that “defund the police”/BLM/Antifa is now inextricably linked with police reform.

Old Dog said:

Jan Libourel?

As for the OP, I would note that the gun sales numbers must be astounding for the MSM -- especially the NYT -- to recognize -- and print articles -- about all the new, including Democrat/liberal/socialist, gun buyers.

I, for one, am truly gratified that so many folks are acknowledging the necessity to own the most effective means of self/home/family defense possible (firearms). Celebrate diversity!

Maybe this will bring us all closer together?

Click to expand...

I certainly hope so. Again it’s an opportunity to cast a light on why gun laws punish good citizens. While I have a 10 day waiting period stretch to a month, or have a CCW fingerprinting appointment that’s 6 months out, the ability to protect my family is in danger. While I wait, a criminal has purchased 3 guns from the back of trunk full of guns, and has it in the pocket of his jacket. Can’t rely on police to defend my home as its happening.

I’ve shown a lot of people normally against guns, the absurdity of a state telling a regular citizen that they can’t have their 2A right, then selling them back the privilege in the form of a CCW or a Gun Education Class.

Laggy said:

And if they ever come for guns, I just don’t trust most LEO’s to refuse bad orders.

Click to expand...

Difficult for me to trust guys who post on the internet who can't even tell us where they live.

My advice: get to know some actual law enforcement officers on a personal level. You'll probably be quite surprised -- and be a bit more trusting.

Laggy said:

I’m just saying that LEO reform in the form of demilitarizing is a good thing.

Click to expand...

And I'll counter with saying that, unless you've worked the streets, you probably have difficulty conceiving just what the cops are up against.

I will say, I'm not a fan of "no-knock" warrants. Personal experience with bad results.

Having to obtain a license to carry concealed? That ship has sailed. It is what it is. Same with having to obtain classes to hunt, purchase or carry firearms. This stuff absolutely needs to be addressed to your state legislators.

Old Dog said:

Difficult for me to trust guys who post on the internet who can't even tell us where they live.

My advice: get to know some actual law enforcement officers on a personal level. You'll probably be quite surprised -- and be a bit more trusting.

Click to expand...

Raised in Arizona. Lived in Colorado, Montana and Oregon. Live in Spokane now.