45/70 , Pyrodex, 777 ????
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gtrgy888
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Download 777 by 15% using cornmeal filler to approximate black powder loads. It can batter reproductions if you go too hot. Ask me how I know.
troy fairweather
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You won't get 70 in with modern cases, I would try about 50 grains and use some wads to fill the case.
I have some 777 that says not to use in cartridges in the warnings. It's FFFg. Don't know about other granulations.
I have shot cartridges loaded with Black MZ in my original 1873 Winchester. Loads like black and shoots like black, but doesn't corrode.
I have shot cartridges loaded with Black MZ in my original 1873 Winchester. Loads like black and shoots like black, but doesn't corrode.
LightninST
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I use 2F only in cartridges 38 and up 3F in BP small pistols only .
Cream of Wheat, Grits or dry fiber wad works , lubed wad if you use a over powder card .
Cream of Wheat, Grits or dry fiber wad works , lubed wad if you use a over powder card .
Ugly Sauce
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Why try? Use black. 777 is not very "predictable", and weird things have happened. !!! With black you can just put enough in the case so that the bullet touches the powder, or compresses it just a teeny tiny bit when seated. Black likes more compression than that, but that's a whole other story, and just filling the case to the bottom of the bullet will work. (but no air space) That will eliminate any fiddling around with fillers.
My guess would be that around 60 grains of black will be close to filling the case to the bottom of the bullet. But no air space. 60 grains would be a nice mild load, but powerful. 777 and other substitutes require cleaning, there's no advantage to them. Any gun will corrode if left dirty and dry.
Heavily compressed charges of black powder will burn clean and be very accurate. You can indeed get 70 grains into a modern case. The 1" group above, group #3, was shot with 80 grains of 3f Swiss powder and a Speer 400 grain JSP. Can 777 or Pyrodex do that? Maybe, I'd like to see!!
When the U.S. Army reduced the powder charge in the .45-70 to 55 grains in the carbine, (I shoot 70 grain loads in my carbine all the time, not a problem) they used wads and not fillers. I think that's the better way to go if you need to take up space in the case.
I purchased a 1 lb of pyrodex and 45cal 777 50 gr pellets
on sale. I don't have much experience with
BP or Substitutes. I was worried about the
empty space in the case.
The first method used to make the 45/55 carbine for Army use was by inserting a cardboard tube into the case to reduce it's volume.
troy fairweather
Member
I wouldn't use the pellets
Thanks I'll wait on 45 /70 project for now.
I have not seen any BP here in a long time.
I got the SUBS. they were on sale cheep.
I have a 36 cal ML
Ugly Sauce
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Oh yeah, the tube. I forgot about the tube. I don't think that lasted long. Or...did it? Anyhow...they opted not to use the French Vanilla coffee mate. I believe they did consider that, but figured the soldiers would be pulling the bullets, to use the creamer in their coffee, and would be low on ammo if attacked. Kind of like the guys in the 'Nam, taking the C4 out of the claymores, and using it to cook hot cocoa and coffee. Soldiers, can't trust them.
Ugly Sauce
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That could be, not surprised. ! I thought those guys used cream of wheat. ? However, as someone who likes a little bit of coffee in their creamer, I could never bring myself to do that. I'd use the coffee instead. 
Or maybe just seat a bean under the ball.
Or maybe just seat a bean under the ball.
Ooohhhh, reenactors, now there’s a real source of knowledge of actually shooting black powder guns....... NOT.
Real black powder is available, just not in many brick and mortar shops. You’re going to have to pony up a hazmat fee so order enough to make it worthwhile
Ugly Sauce
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It chain-fired in my 1860, blew the loading latch lever off, and sent the front sight into high orbit. Not sure if it's come down yet. That was my first, and last time I tried 777.
I don't know how long the tubes lasted. They found Custer battlefield cartridges with the remains of tubes still in them. Let's see, carbine came out in 1873. Custer died in 1876. Who knows how long after that? Maybe the old records would tell. It's an elegant way of handling it. Stick tubes in all of the unloaded cases, run them down the assembly line, fill with powder, and insert bullet. I could see the advantage as a hand loader rather than fumbling around with over-powder wads.
As far as some of your other assertions, black power leaves a lot of soot which is very hygroscopic and forms a compound, sodium or potassium hydroxide, which is corrosive to steel, not good for brass, and is dirty as hell. The substitute I loaded in cartridges, Allliant Black MZ, doesn't leave soot, isn't very hygroscopic, and doesn't form the same compounds anyway. Alliant says it is virtually noncorrosive. In my climate, I didn't have to worry about cleaning right away although I didn't typically leave it more than a couple of days. It loads like black and I had good results with it. In fact, I just found some fired brass that I forgot about that had MZ residue in it for a couple of years. It's kind of a whitish residue. I threw them in my vibe tumbler and they came out clean with no ill effects on the brass.
Ugly Sauce
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Dang...I clean my guns even if I just dry-fire them, within hours. Naw, just kidding. Don't dry fire my guns. !! But if I did...!!!!!
Not familiar with Black MZ...what velocities does it produce compared to equal volumes of Black Powder?
Not familiar with Black MZ...what velocities does it produce compared to equal volumes of Black Powder?
Seems like to much trouble.
Couldn't tell you as I didn't chrono any of it or black powder. Alliant says it is a black power equivalent and that is what it seemed to be. It isn't hot like 777 is. Instructions are to load it like black and seat the bullet firmly on the charge. I was using it in an original Winchester 73 caliber 32 WCF for proof of concept. I dumped enough in the cases to get good compression when seating the bullet. My 73 has a barrel that looks like several miles of bad road, but I was able to fire some shots and have them go straight to the target and not key hole for few rounds. I really need to get that thing relined. I do have some rounds left from my experiment and it is on my list to run them through my Marlin and a chrono for some rough data. My '73 was made in 1887 and is a rifle, not a carbine. It has a full octagon barrel that is several inches longer than my Marlin carbine.
What I do know is the stuff went boom every time and gave some smoke, although certainly not black powder quantity smoke. It didn't burn smokeless clean, but I was impressed. When Alliant says clean burning, they mean it.
woodnbow
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“The enlisted man is stupid,
However he is clever and sly,
And bears considerable watching.”
Watch all you want, you’re gonna sleep sometime...
Loyalist Dave
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I started as Confederate Artillery in 1976 - Dement's Battery; Maryland Light Artillery (and it was a battery, we had 3 guns)
(a few years hiatus for college and USMC Infantry)
I changed over to flintlocks and The Maryland Colonial Militia in 1992
CAS black powder competitor in the 1990's...,
Was for a while part of The Loyal American Regiment...,
Now Serjeant Major [18th c British spelling], Maryland Loyalist Battalion and..,
Serjeant 1st New Jersey Loyalists...
Hunt a bit with the flinters too....,
You will find among reenactors, or living historians, a range of experience with black powder arms, just as you will with the general shooting public and modern firearms. I am by no means a rare expert the proves the rule, and in fact do not consider myself more than "well experienced".
Loyalist Dave
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