45-70 load

[SlowFuse]

I took today off, ended up doing some casting. Three 4-20 pots worth. First two were pure/soft lead for minie balls. Goes quick with those things.

Last pot I threw 2 ingots of Lyman#2 (around 10 lbs) in with the remaining 2 or 2.5 inches woth of soft lead left in the pot. Made two varieties of 45-70. Lee 457-405 and 457-340. First question is generally what hardness would these need to be for trapdoor level loads? I'm thinking this lead should be about 12 bhn or slightly higher mixed with the small amount of soft I mentioned, which is around 6 bhn.

Main question is why I posted here. Wanting to make BP loads with real black on these. I did this years ago with a case full of 777 2F, they were surprisingly stout from memory. Never used the real thing for this and all I use is 3F in muskets and revolvers, so thats what I have on hand. Go-Ex and OE. Im thinking of using a filler with loads from around 25 to 40 grains.

Suggestions on filler if I go with lighter loads? Will my usual cream of wheat work? Do I need a card between powder and filler? I see some using fiber type fillers like dacron with mixed opinion. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[mushka]

I shoot an original 1873 springfield cut down rifle. I cast a bullet when sized and gas checked weighs about 315-317 grns. I lube by hand with a lube I make. 55 grns of 3F and lg rifle primer. It is reasonably accurate and comfortable to shoot. I have put a 405 grn gas checked bullet, same load, shoots ok but recoils a little more. Don't need filler or wads. Use a bp lube, not alox.

 

[DocRock]

Best results with black powder come from a bullet that is at least .002" over groove depth and soft enough to obturate and seal well. That's generally in the BHN 6 - 8 range, but realistically, well sized and lubed, anything 10 and under (as yours will likely be based on description) will probably be fine.

There are strong but divided views on filler. I don't use any in rifle loads but use corn meal in paper cartridge pistol loads. I do not place a card between powder and filler. There are those who claim that corn meal/COW filler is essentially shooting scouring compound into the rifle throat, and suggest that fiber wad filler is far better. There seems to be some merit in that, but were I developing a reduced load 45-70, I would use corn meal filler: powder, filler, card, lube cookie, card, bullet. Others will have different but strongly held views on the subject.

 

[SlowFuse]

Lube sizer has SPG in it now so thats likely how I will lube them. Measured some and most are around 458, so hoping to just use the 458 to not squeeze them down any, want them to be as close to this size as possible.

For some reason I was thinking I would need harder lead with these unless I gas checked them. These are plain base so thats not the case.

 

[ms6852]

I've just recently acquired a Pedersoli Sharps and I use a 20:1 . I don't load hot so I do not use a gas check or a filler or wad. I powder coat my bullets so I don't lube either and don't have the experience yet with black powder so I am using smokeless A5744. But I will make the transition to black powder as soon as I read enough and research it. In the meantime I've purchased a couple of hundred rounds of black powder bullets of various weights starting from 405 grains to 535 grains loaded with black powder from Buffalo Arms Company. If I like how it shoots I will make the switch.

 

[DocRock]

Lube sizer has SPG in it now so thats likely how I will lube them. Measured some and most are around 458, so hoping to just use the 458 to not squeeze them down any, want them to be as close to this size as possible.

For some reason I was thinking I would need harder lead with these unless I gas checked them. These are plain base so thats not the case.

Well, I'd want to say .458 is going to be too small in a worn trapdoor barrel, but that's no certainty. Best to slug that barrel and be sure of what you're working with in the future.

SPG is the right stuff for lube and will serve you well. Plain base and soft lead will be right for any load you work up. I shoot a 535 grs Postel of 1:30 over 73 grs 1.5 Fg at about 1350 fps if I recall correctly, and it's a treat. Soft lead, SPG, and real Black are a good combination.

Hope they shoot for you. Enjoy!

 

[SlowFuse]

Thanks for the input.

I'm loading these in a 1895. May just do a small amount to try and end up casting some softer. From a bit of quick reading and what I see here mine may be a bit hard. They'll work in smokeless loads so not a waste.

Really wanting to do reduced 3F loads so the filler is the part i'm still iffy about. Will have to do some with a full case too, no filler since I've never tried it with real black. Any issues with a full load of 3F goex or old E?

 

[Doak]

If ya don't already know, learn about "grease cookies" in "Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" by Paul A. Matthews. Makes all the difference!
Kindest Regards,
Doak

 

[DocRock]

Thanks for the input.

I'm loading these in a 1895. May just do a small amount to try and end up casting some softer. From a bit of quick reading and what I see here mine may be a bit hard. They'll work in smokeless loads so not a waste.

Really wanting to do reduced 3F loads so the filler is the part i'm still iffy about. Will have to do some with a full case too, no filler since I've never tried it with real black. Any issues with a full load of 3F goex or old E?

I don't like 3 F in 45-70. Haven't been able to get accuracy with it, but it's certainly not a safety issue and in lighter loads may work well. @Doak gives good advice above - the Matthews book is very helpful.

You're talking Marlin 1895, I hope. I pity anyone shooting black powder in a Winchester 1895. A bigger PITA to clean, I do not know...

 

[troy fairweather]

I like loading bp 45/70. Keep the inside of the case clean if to dirty you get case stretch.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Im thinking of using a filler with loads from around 25 to 40 grains.

Suggestions on filler if I go with lighter loads? Will my usual cream of wheat work? Do I need a card between powder and filler? I see some using fiber type fillers like dacron with mixed opinion. Any input would be appreciated.

Howdy

First off, I'm thinking 25 to 40 grains is awfully light.

The Army put about 55 grains in their light 45-70 loads for the Trapdoor carbine because the standard 70 grain load generated excessive recoil in the lighter carbines. The extra space was taken up with cardboard wadding.

777 is more energetic than real Black Powder, so whatever you remember the recoil was, it will probably be a little bit less with real Black Powder.

The bullet 2nd from right is what I use in my Black Powder 45-70 cartridges. Most of the other bullets in this photo are Big Lube bullets with huge lube grooves, but the 45-70 bullet is not. It is a 405 grain .458 diameter Flat Nose bullet from Montana Precision Swaging. I'm pretty sure it is lubed with SPG.






I used to buy this bullet from Buffalo Arms, but it appears they do not carry this specific bullet anymore. They do have a fairly good selection of cast bullets for Black Powder loads in 45-70 though. They say their bullets are about Brinnell hardness of 9.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloadi...cketed-lead-copper-coated-bullets?cat=486&p=3




It looks like Midway USA is carrying a very similar bullet. Midway states the alloy is 20/1 and Brinnell hardness is 9.25.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010755057?pid=763241




For the tube magazine in your Marlin 1895 I suggest a flat point bullet such as I am using. Round points and spire points are fine in single shots, but you do not want a pointed bullet pressing against the primer in a tubular magazine, particularly with a heavy recoiling round like 45-70.

If you want to use filler, I don't think dacron is a very good idea. You want a filler with some body to it in a Black Powder cartridge. As I said, the army was using cardboard. Years ago I used corn meal as filler in some of my Black Powder 45 Colt rounds. Most of the guys in CAS who use fillers in their BP cartridges use grits. Cream of wheat would probably be fine too. When I was using corn meal, when I compressed the load, it was the corn meal that actually took the compression, the powder remained pretty much uncompressed, which is fine. I just think that something fluffly like dacron will be too much like empty air space, and you most definitely do not want that in a Black Powder cartridge.

I have two rifles chambered for 45-70, both are single shots; a Pedersoli Sharps and an original Trapdoor.








I have not shot the Sharps in years because my eyesight was so bad I could not hardly see the target through the aperture sight. Not too bad with the open sights on the Trapdoor.

45-70 is the only BP cartridge I load using a drop tube for the powder. All my other BP cartridges I just dump in the powder and compress it when I seat the bullet.

My standard load for 45-70 is Winchester brass, Winchester Large Rifle primer, 70 grains of Schuetzen FFg, and that Montana 405 grain .458 bullet. I pour the powder out of a Lyman Black Powder measure into the pan from a powder measure, then pour it down my 24" drop tube into the case.

I pour in the powder, then compress it about .470 deep with a compression die. I place a .030 thick over powder card on top, then seat the bullet .520 deep. Those who are better shots than me usually do not further compress the powder with the bullet, but I like to get a little bit of extra compression just to make sure I got all the air out.

I have not used FFFg powder in years, I load everything with FFg these days simply because I don't want to keep two different granulations around. Just lazy. I like Schuetzen because it uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex and leaves less fouling behind. I have no experience with Old E, but a lot of guys seem to like it.

Here is my drop tube. A Lyman 24" drop tube and a home made stand. An inexpensive powder funnel at top held on with masking tape. The pistol is just there for scale.






Here are all the Black Powder cartridges that I load, left to right, 44 Russian, 45 Schofield, 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt and 45-70.






I shot my Trapdoor last year with the above loads and had a good time.

Early this year I had cataract surgery and can now see 20/20 in my right eye and about 20/30 in my left. When the weather gets cooler I will take my Sharps out and see if I can see the targets a little bit better.

 

[SlowFuse]

Yes sorry, Marlin (Remlin) 1895, and I'm going to check this book out.

Thanks for the info Driftwood. Good stuff there. A drop tube or a compression die is also something i've considered. Leaning more towards the tube and doing the "consistent tapping" method for now.

Have heard of people making these with arrow shafts, but thinking i'd like something a bit larger on diameter.

The more I think about it the more I say just do a lightly compressed load and forget fillers. Maybe after I get a feel for things it could be revisited.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I have never tried "consistent tapping".

For 45-70 I use both the drop tube and the compression die. The ID of my Lyman drop tube is about 1/2". It is made of 2 pieces, each about 12" long and joined together with a threaded union.

It was a long time ago, but I guess what I did was buy the Black Powder Measure with the drop tube. I mounted the powder measure on my Hornady Lock and Load progressive press for when I load cartridges other than 45-70.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/lyman-classic-55-black-powder-measure-with-drop-tube-lym7767775

Here is a photo of the Black Powder measure mounted on my Hornady press. This is the set up that use when loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 with Black Powder.






When I load for 45-70 I portion out the powder into a small powder measure pan held under the Lyman powder measure on the Hornady press. Then I pour it though the drop tube as I described earlier and compress the powder with a compression die before seating and crimping the bullet.

I have heard guys talking for years about techniques such as shaking a dipper of powder to get the correct amount of powder for years. I would put that in the same category as 'consistent tapping'. There is no such thing as 'consistent tapping' unless you have some sort of mechanical device which carefully controls the amount of tapping.

If you want consistency in your loads, you are going to have to do something other than the random amount of vibration caused by any amount of tapping. That is why I measure out consistent loads with my BP powder measure, and compress it consistently with a compression die.

Here are my RCBS 45-70 dies. That is the compression die lying horizontally at the top of the box. After expanding the case mouth with the expander die (in the middle in this photo) I unscrew the plug and screw the compression die in the die body in its place. Everything is preset for my bullets, so it only takes a minute to change the die over. I load all my 45-70 ammo on my old Lyman Spartan Single Stage press, so I don't even have to unscrew the die body when changing to the compression die.





I bought my compression die from Buffalo Arms.

I'm pretty sure this is the one I bought. The plug is .447 in diameter.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/447-453-custom-exp-for-lyman-rcbs-expander-die-bodies-van447453

If you don't want to buy a drop tube, rather than trying to use an arrow I would just look for a brass or aluminum tube 24" long with an ID of about 1/2".