Basic Reloading & The (Classic) Lee Loader

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I started reloading with a Lee Loader in 38 Special many years ago and now have 8 kits (along with 4 presses, 14 die sets, and 1,32 metric tons of assorted reloading tools). I like Lee Loaders and perhaps because of my machinist/mechanic background I have experienced none of the "problems" the the OP has. And as often incorrectly posted, not all Lee Loaders are neck sizing only. Straight sided cases are full length sized. bottle necked cases neck sized. For not being able to fully size a 45 ACP case, the tool needs a solid base/anvil and a mallet heavy enough to fully push the case into the die (so far the hardest case I've found to size is 44 Magnum case previously loaded to near max). A "dead blow" hammer, 16-24 oz. works great and some lube may be helpful. A block of wood works fine for a base/anvil (I started with a 6" log about 24" long). I can't see why one would find pounding a brass, closed end tube into a steel tube "impossible", but some may find it difficult. I solved the primer popping problem by lightly chamfering the primer pocket mouth, just like decrimping military primer pockets. I haven't popped a primer in many, many reloads.

I'd suggest wiping each case with a solvent dampened rag, use a bit of lube (I have used Mink Oil Boot Dressing Cream for many, many years and have never stuck a case), using a suitable mallet (I have used 8 oz plastic mallets, 16 oz. leather mallet, and a 24 oz dead blow hammer) and set the die on a sturdy surface (I have used 4x4 blocks on end, a leather pad on the bench top and for harder to size cases a lead ingot). Make sure the mallet hits the case square and the die is straight and supported. Should work...

Hint; never use a steel hammer or steel anvil. The Lee Loader won't last very long using steel against steel.
 
I use a 15in piece of thick webbed steel " I " beam to whack on---can be bought at local metal supply store.
 
mdi said:
(I have used 4x4 blocks on end,
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...This^^

I have a 6" tall piece of 4x4, exposed grain side up, that I use for my hammer style bullet pull, and for things that need a dead blow surface like ramming clay nozzles for skyrockets.
 
throttlesnot said:
Thanks once again everyone.

Going to head to the basement for a while this afternoon to do some experimenting. Lots of good suggestions! I'm planning on getting some Imperial wax to try. Incidentally, I ran across an article last night that said that Imperial is basically 2 parts beeswax to 1 part lanolin. That seems doable at home assuming there's no "magic" to their formula. Anyone ever tried it?

Better lubricant and a more solid surface to hammer on seem to be the leading (and easiest) things to try immediately. I do have a 4" bench vise with a small anvil on it. Should I put a shop rag on the anvil or anything to prevent damage to the die, or is that defeating the purpose of using a hard surface? I guess the crimping end of the die will be against the anvil, and the crimp area is recessed, so it shouldn't be a problem. I'll give some a try using the vice jaws, too. And I'm definitely going to give the die a good cleaning.

To be clear, I am currently setting the die on the floor and hitting the case with a dead blow hammer. Seems like that should be plenty enough force, especially with some lube. Hopefully the anvil helps, but I'm going to do some before and after measurements on everything. I'll probably separate things into "went flush, or nearly" and "not even close", and see how the groups compare.

Results to follow! Very excited to see how things go.
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What size dead blow hammer? I do leather work and when I'm trying to punch out holes using punches depending on the size and thickness of leather (normally 1/8"+) I will grab my small 2# sledge and use a cutting board on the floor. The main thing is have a solid surface that will not give. Anything that gives use energy. Use a dead blow hammer has a lot of give in the head. Use a real hammer (ball peen). I like my 2# sledge for it has a short handle 10". Makes it easy to handle and control.

As fas as setting the die on the anvil. If the anvil surface is smooth not a problem. If it has some sharp edges, take a file and smooth it out.
 
It's a 1 lb. dead blow hammer. I tried a claw hammer, too, which actually tends to work better. The dead blow hammer likes to rotate in my hand when it hits the depriming rod, and I've slipped off and whacked my knuckles a couple too many times now. Claw hammer is way easier to control, and I feel like I'm getting way more energy transfer per swing (although it takes more smaller swings), but it's peening the crap out of the priming rod, heh.

Things went much better this time around. Cleaned the die first. I tried to handle each case individually, and not process things in batches. Pick up case, clean with 99% isopropyl, add a tiny bit of lube (diluted lanolin for now, because it's what I have), hammer into place. They've all gone flush so far. Getting them back out has still been a little tougher than I'd like, but doable. Moving to the anvil on my vise next. Wanted to see what more focused cleaning would do while maintaining the same striking surface first. Turns out there are two layers of cruddy vinyl/laminate/linoleum/whatever flooring over the concrete in the basement, too, so it's definitely a worse surface than I thought it was. Found a few small pieces of wood around to try on the floor, but they're mostly too small to be stable. Need to get my lazy butt to the hardware store.

Question: Is it possible I got suckered on a cheap load of very old/overfired brass? It was advertised as "clean, mixed head stamp" (not here), which I now understand to be more like "clean, out of the bucket at the range". There is, for example, a "WCC 64" case, which I believe is a Winchester factory-produced piece from 1964. I would assume that piece has been fired more than a few times. A lot of the brass (2/3?) is also measuring slightly under length (in the .884" to .887" range, or even less). The more I look at this stuff the more I feel like I'm wasting a bunch of peoples' time over me trying to save a few bucks (pardon my frustration showing). Thoughts?

Back to whack-a-mole for a bit!

Edit: I should clarify. I'm using the dead blow hammer to hammer the case into the resizing die, and the claw hammer to remove it in combination with the depriming rod. I am not resizing with the claw hammer.
 
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Your call on the quality of the brass.

All else being equal, I would happily load .45 brass from 1964 if it wasn't cracked or split and the head hadn't been beaten into oblivion.

Rifle brass grows with each firing; pistol brass shrinks. Not unusual for it to be a bit shorter than spec.

I just measured a random handful of my older MHS .45 brass and they went from .883" up.

I personally will load those, and have been, and expect no problems.

I'm no Bullseye competition shooter though, just an old cranky guy trying to do better.

P.S. add a small wad of leather inside a brass casing and put on the top of your priming rod to save peening maybe?
 
Good read. Thank you, jonas.

I'm trying to track down a post I found a few days ago about case length in .45 ACPs. I really don't want to paraphrase, because I feel like I'm going to screw it up, but he noted that a SAAMI barrel is going to be made to maximum case length (.898 "+ .001" tolerance, I think), so any case in the SAAMI range (.898" - .01") will chamber properly. Brand new, untrimmed brass sounds like it's about the only thing that could potentially cause trouble, but basically nothing that's factory, or has been fired already. Not sure what the tolerance is on an extractor, but his point was that it's going to be the exception rather than the rule that you're truly headspacing on the case mouth. I certainly don't have the experience to know one way or the other, but I thought it was an interesting point. My take from it was that brass that's even a bit under spec is fine to reload and shoot. This seems to jive with most of what I've read from the "old school", non-competition shooters, who tend to be in the "load it until it splits" camp. I'm no competition shooter to be sure. I'm just in this to make 100 rounds a month or something for target practice and plinking, and am planning on using a pretty light powder load.
 
I hope you find that post. I'd like to read it.

I don't have an opinion or agenda of course, I'm just fascinated and want to learn what I'm doing.
(or at least, what I shouldn't be doing!)

I'm in the middle of a complete teardown of my 1911 right now with the help of Kuhnhausen.
I have a loose plunger tube and am trying to learn how to fix it myself.

The article I linked to just a bit ago, that guy was measuring everything.

I know it's just anecdotal, but he did say no matter how short his brass got it never got down to where it was headspacing off the extractor.

I have no idea how he figures that, but before long- I'm gonna know!
I hope.
 
Well, some good news, the resizing is going much better. Just tore through 25 in a row, and they all went flush in 2-4 medium whacks. Combination of die cleaning and heavier lubing, I think? A little surprised things are going so much better, but I'll take it. Feels very doable without extreme effort or time finally.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

I'm sure there will be more questions, but between easier resizing/removal and a better priming tool I'm feeling much more confident. I think I'm going to resize and sort first. There are definitely some cases that are too short to use, and I'm finding some with loose case mouths (bullets can be pushed in easily by hand). My bullets are RN FMJs, and are consistently measuring . 4505", so I need to make sure they fit tight. 448" or . 449" ID seems to be too wide. My .45 also likes to knock bullets back a bit (OAL decreases by .01" per chambering almost exactly). I think I've read that some knockback is pretty typical (and why you should fire rounds if you have to unload/reload your weapon). Is that correct? Anyway, a loose bullet being driven further into it's case and causing an overpressure situation is not something I want to experience.

Still planning on some Imperial. Out of stock a lot of places right now. Looks like it'll be a week or two, but I'm curious to compare.

Good luck with loose plunger tube, jonas. Looks a bit more involved than whack-a-mole reloading, heh.
 
This is not the post I found before on 1911 headspacing, but it's similar:

https://www.marlinowners.com/thread...he-extractor-as-the-default-condition.189368/

Seems I had things backwards (go figure), but there also seems to be an ongoing chamber shoulder vs. extractor debate. Must have read the opposing viewpoint first (or misunderstood). Apologies for any confusion. Still tying to find the first post for comparison.
 
throttlesnot said:
Hi everyone!

Brand new here. In the interest of keeping the "intro" brief, I've done maybe a few hundred rounds of once-fired .45 ACP on my buddy's single stage press, and that's about it. I've done a fair amount of reading beyond that, so I feel pretty comfortable with the basics (terminology, etc.), but I have some more specific questions.

A couple of notes:
1. My "setup" right now is the brute force method via a couple of (Classic) Lee Loader kits. I also decided to go the hand priming tool route vs. doing it with the Lee kit (more to follow).
2. I know it's not a great way to do it, but it's what I can afford at the moment. Looking to make this setup work, not upgrade, so please try to keep information to the Loader kit (or reloading/gun mechanics) specifically.

The main thing is, I'm sorting through some brass I bought (9mm & .45 ACP). I'm trying to determine a quicker way to sort through it. The main issue I'm having so far is that resizing a lot of the .45 ACP is near impossible, even with some lanolin sprayed on. The percentage of pieces I've been able to hammer flush has been really low. Most just don't quite get there, or are left sticking out 1/4" or something. Is this a reason to automatically chuck that brass (can't be hammered flush)? Some of them seem to measure just fine, even if they have not made it all the way flush. Is this due to a limitation in leverage without having a press? Has the brass been fired too much and started bulging near the bottom? I've seen videos of guys knocking .45 ACP brass into the resizing die in two swings, and then tapping it back out to reprime, but this just doesn't seem feasible (at least not consistently). I'm beating these things against a vinyl-covered concrete floor 10 times and not getting them flush. Obviously, getting them back out isn't any easier. I've successfully primed some brass, but it was really tricky and I've already blown a primer in the process. I'm sure people have success with it, but hitting a thing that is designed to explode when hit seems like a silly way to install it, so I ended up getting a hand priming tool. It seems like doing some measurement prior to resizing is helpful, at least as far as the ID of the brass goes. I've been able to easily slide bullets into a number of resized cases with my fingers (no flare, no chamfer). This seems like an old brass problem as well (thin metal at the case mouth), but I don't know that for sure.

Anyway, I think I got ahold of some pretty rough brass that's going to need some serious sorting, or heavy hammering, to work through. Are there things I should be on the look out for to use as automatic disqualifiers aside from the obvious things like cracks/splits? Some of them have pretty dented case mouths, but I've been able to hammer many of those out using a combination of flaring and resizing. They seem to come out pretty well. Some have half-circle dents in the side. Those smooth out fairly well, but make me nervous. And so forth. Trying to salvage enough to make the purchase semi-worthwhile.

If "buy a $40 reloading guide" is the answer to a lot of these questions, I'm certainly willing to consider that option (I need a good one anyway), but I do enjoy some Q&A with experienced individuals vs. pure informational reading. Helps cut to the core of issues faster sometimes. Googling has provided some answers, but it can be a lot of scrolling through unrelated posts to find one tiny nugget of good info.

Thanks if you've made it this far! Looking forward to some tips and tricks.

Regards.
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From your post, I take it you're talking about THIS -> proxy-image?piurl=https%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.jpg

NOT this -> proxy-image?piurl=https%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.jpg


The two things about Lee Loaders to keep in mind is: the surface is everything; and, that includes your hammer. When I first got started using Lee Loaders was with .30-06 and it was a big learning experience. I worked as a machinist in aerospace so I had lots of tools - including hammers - to choose from and found the brass mallets - 10-15oz. range - worked best BUT only if the Lee die was fixed in a solid mounting like a steel bench vise. None of my various dead-blow, soft-blow, forming, shaping, roofing, brad, nail or other hammers were worth a spit using the LL.

For portability I went to a supply shop and bought a machining vise - the kind that bolts to the table of a milling machine - and a flat-face, 12oz. brass mallet. Trying to use the sizing die free-hand on the floor was a nightmare. So, my first piece of advice is, get a steel vise you can mount the resizing die in and a brass mallet in the 10-15oz. range. The other thing I found was, having a 2-3" brass punch the same size as the cartridge head saved my thumb and forefinger a lot of smacking around. While you're at Harbor Freight buying a vise, get a set of soft punches, too.
 
Hey, GeoDude! Yes, talking about the hammer-operated version, not the press.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only person to have struggled a bit with this. Was getting to the point of near-insanity that I couldn't hammer a thing into a thing consistently. I'm no aerospace machinist, but I've done enough manufacturing that it seemed like it should pretty much be a no-brainer.

Have you had any problems with the brass hammer marring the case heads? I would assume not, but I thought hammering two of the same metals together was generally not advisable for longevity (please correct me if necessary). I suppose if you're always striking nice and flat it shouldn't be an issue, but I'm curious to know a little more. Buying a slightly larger brass punch to use for removing the resized brass did cross my mind at one point. Glad to know that's useful; it made sense to me. The depriming rod really is both too thin and too long for the application, especially lacking a reasonably-sized head to strike (maybe I'm just bad at this still). It would be really nice if Lee made the depriming die like a hollowed out version of the priming die, so the sizing die would sit down into it a bit on a shoulder and not slide around when you're banging brass out. I guess if you have your die vised you can just put a catch bin underneath or something.

I should note, I tried jonas' suggestion to put a bad piece of brass on top of the depriming rod as a cap to prevent peening, and it seems to work pretty well. It also has the side effect of giving you a slightly larger surface to strike. It made a noticeable difference in how much my dead blow hammer wants to roll in my hand.

Also, I did try using a larger pin punch to remove resized brass at one point, but it was out to the case walls. I'm pretty sure the head of the pin punch was resting on the angles at the base of the walls, and *not* on the flat part of the head inside the case. That seemed like a bad thing. The next size punch down was just barely bigger than the depriming rod, and didn't seem worth switching to.
 
A thought about using a claw hammer on a Lee Loader; damaging the case head, damaging the die, damaging the tools/parts. Basic machine shop 101 (as taught in the 7trh grade); Steel faced hammers are not used on "strong" or tempered steel and only on tools designed to be used with a steel hammer (chisels, punches, brass rods etc.). Besides destroying the tool, often shrapnel from the steel hammered on flies off and can be dangerous, and painful.

Didn't mean to preach, but using hand tools for 60+ years I cringe when I see or hear of "Primitive Pete" using a claw hammer on a punch, chisel or most steel parts...
 
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mdi said:
A thought about using a claw hammer on a Lee Loader; damaging the case head, damaging the die, damaging the tools/parts. Basic machine shop 101 (as taught in the 7trh grade); Steel faced hammers are not used on "strong" or tempered steel and only on tools designed to be used with a steel hammer (chisels, punches, brass rods etc.). Besides destroying the tool, often shrapnel from the steel hammered on flies off and can be dangerous, and painful.

Didn't mean to preach, but using hand tools for 60+ years I cringe when I see or hear of "Privative Pete" using a claw hammer on a punch, chisel or most steel parts...
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No worries, totally fair! Although, I kind of wish I could change my name to "Private Pete" now, heh, but I suppose it's probably taken anyway. It was not at all how I intended to do it, and I know better, but it's the only thing I could get to work at all early on. Seems "more lube" (and probably more attention to the cleanliness of the die) is having the biggest impact. I feel pretty silly about it. I also feel like I should take a pic of my depriming rod for extra cringe factor. The peening is fantastic, especially given how few cases I've actually resized so far (again, going much better as of yesterday).

Do the sizing dies "break in" at all, or was it more likely a cleanliness/lube issue? Closer attention to technique has made some difference, too. For instance, I paid close attention while I was using my dead blow hammer, and noticed I was actually using a pretty loose grip on it for some reason and just hadn't realized it. I tightened up (and choked up a bit), and it made a noticeable difference. Too much soldering for me lately. Need more hammer practice, apparently. Back to basics! I still don't like how much the plastic dead blow bounces/rolls. I really like the brass hammer idea. Metal-on-metal feels way better, just need to use the right metals. Good safety note, mdi.

Edit:
I tried a few with the "vise squish" method, too, and it is supremely satisfying if nothing else. Seems like a trade in effort for time (way easier on the arms, but it feels like operating the vise takes a bit longer than a few whacks with a hammer). I am not practiced at this method, either. I assume, like anything, that it would go faster if I were.
 
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throttlesnot said:
No worries, totally fair! Although, I kind of wish I could change my name to "Private Pete" now, heh, but I suppose it's probably taken anyway. It was not at all how I intended to do it, and I know better, but it's the only thing I could get to work at all early on. Seems "more lube" (and probably more attention to the cleanliness of the die) is having the biggest impact. I feel pretty silly about it. I also feel like I should take a pic of my depriming rod for extra cringe factor. The peening is fantastic, especially given how few cases I've actually resized so far (again, going much better as of yesterday).

Do the sizing dies "break in" at all, or was it more likely a cleanliness/lube issue? Closer attention to technique has made some difference, too. For instance, I paid close attention while I was using my dead blow hammer, and noticed I was actually using a pretty loose grip on it for some reason and just hadn't realized it. I tightened up (and choked up a bit), and it made a noticeable difference. Too much soldering for me lately. Need more hammer practice, apparently. Back to basics! I still don't like how much the plastic dead blow bounces/rolls. I really like the brass hammer idea. Metal-on-metal feels way better, just need to use the right metals. Good safety note, mdi.
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Well, don't beat yourself up. We all gotta start somewhere. :)

Brass heads for hammers and mallets is hardened brass made not to mar or damage metals almost as hard or harder than they are. It's why a good brass mallet isn't cheap. I suggest looking around at some pawn shops near where people make things in your area. Machine shops, auto body shops, mechanic shops, places like that. Machinists pawn or sell their old stuff to buy new stuff and most often their old stuff still has plenty of life in it for hobby work, just maybe not real serious work.

Dead-blow hammers are for mating two surfaces evenly without peening or cracking them, or for encouraging things to dislodge and move a little with gentle persuasion instead of breaking them. Dead blows don't work too good for driving things into other things.

What Paul posted is a good example of making it work the easy way - IF you have the right tools. I highly recommend getting the right tools. :)

BTW: I use a machining vise because it's what I'm used to. They grab tight, release quick, are very portable, and you can make your own jaws for them very easily. You can bolt one down but not like a bench vise. Take that into consideration when shopping for a vise. Bench vises and machining vises aren't interchangeable. I think mostly folks have both and just develop a preference for a task.
 
I edited my post about hammers to "Primitive Pete". Didn't attempt to insult anyone, but I started using hand tools when I was 10, taught by an old mechanic (whose tools were more valuable than gold to him), and in shop classes until I had one year of college in. I continued working with hand tools and then power tools working with metal and and machines until I retired at 66. So, sometimes I become the "Old Curmudgeon", stiff necked OF that insists on the "correct" way to use tools. My apologies!
 
mdi said:
A thought about using a claw hammer on a Lee Loader; damaging the case head, damaging the die, damaging the tools/parts. Basic machine shop 101 (as taught in the 7trh grade); Steel faced hammers are not used on "strong" or tempered steel and only on tools designed to be used with a steel hammer (chisels, punches, brass rods etc.). Besides destroying the tool, often shrapnel from the steel hammered on flies off and can be dangerous, and painful.

Didn't mean to preach, but using hand tools for 60+ years I cringe when I see or hear of "Primitive Pete" using a claw hammer on a punch, chisel or most steel parts...
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I took shop too and even worked at a machine shop after high school. but, I forgot everything about hammers. What hammer should i use on a loader?
 
Mark_Mark said:
I took shop too and even worked at a machine shop after high school. but, I forgot everything about hammers. What hammer should i use on a loader?
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My recommendation is for a brass mallet in the 10-15oz. range with at least an 8-inch long handle but no longer than 12-inch (they become unwieldy with too long a handle), with a curve and nominal diameter comfortable to your hand, with a flat face on one head and a rounded peening face on the other. That is the most utilitarian pattern, in my experience. Square and round head body shapes are most common but I have seen other shapes and really don't think it is of consequence when used for this application. I also stand by my recommendation of placing a case-head diameter, minimally 3-inch (but not more than 5-inch) in length hardened brass rod, drift, or punch between the user's hand and the case head for driving the case into the sizing die. Keep flesh-and-bone as far away from metal-on-metal contact as possible.

The usual disclaimers apply.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
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My recommendation is for a brass mallet in the 10-15oz. range with at least an 8-inch long handle but no longer than 12-inch (they become unwieldy with too long a handle), with a curve and nominal diameter comfortable to your hand, with a flat face on one head and a rounded peening face on the other. That is the most utilitarian pattern, in my experience. Square and round head body shapes are most common but I have seen other shapes and really don't think it is of consequence when used for this application. I also stand by my recommendation of placing a case-head diameter, minimally 3-inch (but not more than 5-inch) in length hardened brass rod, drift, or punch between the user's hand and the case head for driving the case into the sizing die. Keep flesh-and-bone as far away from metal-on-metal contact as possible.

The usual disclaimers apply.
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nice! like your writing! did you go to college?
 
mdi said:
I edited my post about hammers to "Primitive Pete". Didn't attempt to insult anyone, but I started using hand tools when I was 10, taught by an old mechanic (whose tools were more valuable than gold to him), and in shop classes until I had one year of college in. I continued working with hand tools and then power tools working with metal and and machines until I retired at 66. So, sometimes I become the "Old Curmudgeon", stiff necked OF that insists on the "correct" way to use tools. My apologies!
Click to expand...

Heh, like I said, no worries, mdi. Safety reminders are always appreciated. I think we younger generation folk aren't as savvy in general with tools as people used to be. Too many video games ;)

I did take shop in middle school, but that's about it. Most of the rest I've picked up along the way without any instruction from someone knowledgeable. Hard for me to admit I need help sometimes.

I'm glad everyone here has been friendly and patient!
 
I'm a little embarrassed to show this because it's so ugly. If it was a high school shop project it would get a D+ and only that high because it actually works as intended. I bought the Lee Classic Loader last year to start reloading. I didn't like the lack of consistency inherent with using a hammer, so I made a sort of press to use more even force. The main difference was in seating depth variation, which went from +/- 0.010" with a hammer to +/-0.002" with my press. The other nice thing was that it was a lot quieter, meaning I could load inside without driving my wife crazy.

All the materials are things I had on hand, so it didn't cost me anything other than time. I was going to build a nicer one but my boss, who is a long-time handloader and super nice guy gave me a set of RCBS dies (FL, Neck and Seating) for free. So it just made sense to go ahead and get a used press, which I did before the market went crazy. I still use my little homemade press for certain things, or when I'm at camp. If you're good with your hands you might want to see what you can rig up.

The picture should give you the general idea of using a lever to push a cylinder or ram straight down onto whatever needs to be pushed instead of struck. In the picture it is the face of the case head. The blocks at the bottom are removeable to adjust the distance from the ram to the pressing surface, depending on which operation you are doing.

Happy to answer any questions if you are interested.

upload_2021-2-16_18-43-1.png
 
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