sooty case question

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Cliff6

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My wife wanted to load some rounds for the first time today. While I was explaining things to her, I mentioned that very light loads tend to be sooty with most (if not all) gun powders. She asked why, and I had no answer.

Anybody know why this happens?

Cliff
 
Light loads may not produce enough pressure to get a nice hot, clean burn. Also, light loads don't always expand the brass to seal the chamber, allowing some of that pressure to escape and blow soot over the outside of the case and into the action.
Powder burns faster, hotter, and cleaner as the pressure goes up. You can put a charge of powder on paper plate and light it. It will burn and sparkle, not explode, and there will be more smoke than would normally come out of your gun barrel.
 
Anybody know why this happens?
It’s because your wife asked you.:)
Had it been anyone else to ask, you would have come across the issue before then and would have the knowledge.
I’m pretty sure it was designed that way.;)


My wife wanted to load some rounds for the first time today.
Nice!:cool:
Keep going, you’re doing great!:thumbup:
 
So piggybacking on this thread. Would you consider these 45LC smudges to be from over pressure or under pressure? Were shot out of a Uberti replica of a 1860 Henry.

44Gsv3m.jpg
 
Not enough pressure for a complete BURN. I know it sounds counterintuitive since going too low on a charge causes over pressure. See, we walk a fine line here and never want to go below posted minimums for over pressure reasons. The fine line is getting the powder to burn completely within a certain time window as the bullet releases. Sometimes adding a little more crimp help or (changes) that dwell...... OK always :)

Cheers-
 
Not enough pressure to seal the case to the chamber. The burning powder and soot gets blown down the sides of the case.

I see this in my 9mm Walther PPQ when I'm working up a load. Lower charges are sooty on the outside of the case like you pictured. As I work my way up the ladder, the soot clears up.
The PPQ has a 'stepped' chamber that leaves a small crease in the brass. The sooty cases barely have this crease. Once the case expands enough to conform to the chamber, the crease is more defined and the soot is gone. It's like magic. Now you see it. Now you don't.
 
The above explanations are consistent with my observations as well; lower pressure loads are more susceptible to sooty cases while upper to max loads seem to come out clean.

You can use this explanation of cartridge case expansion as you describe for her these (super simplified) steps in firing and then reloading:

The loaded round taken from the factory box consists of a cartridge case, primer, powder and bullet. This round is sized to fit within the chamber of the firearm, allowing the round to be inserted for firing.

Upon firing, the primer is struck. A pressure-sensitive compound ignites, causing a flame to shoot into the cartridge case which ignites the powder charge.

The gunpowder burns extremely quickly, turning from solid to gas which greatly spikes pressure within the case.

Under increasing pressure, the cartridge case expands slightly, hugging the walls of the chamber as the building pressure begins pushing the bullet out of the case. The cartridge case mouth forms a seal against the building pressure, so the ever expanding gasses can only head down the barrel behind the moving bullet and out the muzzle (the intended exit).

With lighter loads this seal is not as complete as with higher pressure loads, allowing a touch of gas leakage causing the soot/staining you see on the outside of the cases.

Once the bullet is clear of the case and is moving out the barrel the pressure drops dramatically, allowing the walls of the cartridge case to contract slightly.

This bit of contraction allows for extraction, so the fired cartridge case may be removed from the chamber allowing a fresh one to be loaded back into the chamber (if so desired).

The expended cartridge case remains slightly expanded after firing. This allows for a bullet to be inserted into the cartridge case but then it falls out. So to be reused, it must be resized back down.

When you are reloading, you are first kicking out the spent primer and, under the pressure exerted by the sizing die, you are squeezing the resilient brass cartridge case back down to a size that will allow it to hold a bullet firmly and be chambered again.

You then reinsert a primer, add powder, (sometimes) flare the case mouth a bit, you set a bullet at the case mouth and then you use a die that holds the bullet in place as the bullet is pressed back into the neck of the cartridge case.

It is then either left as-is and held securely by the tension of the fit (neck tension) or a crimp (squeeze) is applied with a crimping step to increase the tension to hold the bullet in place with greater force. The resulting crimp may be along the walls of the cartridge case, at the mouth of the cartridge case, or a combination of both.

You then are ready to fire it again.

Again, this is super simplified but it may help to explain the steps you’re doing together at the reloading bench as she creates her own rounds to shoot :thumbup:.

Stay safe.
 
They look like a lot of the factory smokeless 45 colt I've fired in many guns over the years. And like a lot of the 455 webley and 38 S&W too. Aside from my handloads, the only factory colt I fired that did actually obturate well were some black powder loads.
 
So piggybacking on this thread. Would you consider these 45LC smudges to be from over pressure or under pressure? Were shot out of a Uberti replica of a 1860 Henry.

View attachment 980349

So, there's a fingerprint in the soot on the casing in the middle, but there's also that blue color on the second case, and the soot comes down pretty far on most.

Were these handloads? If so, you might let us know what the load was. Probably just lack of obturation like swg1 says, but might be worth looking over.
 
Hmm, a lot of weird answers. I have made up some handloads that spewed unburned powder like a sandblaster, not all deposited soot on the case. I have used some fast, hot burning powders that did soot the case. As long as the case expanded to provide a case/chamber seal, no soot.

Jes plain physics, sorta like worn piston rings in yer old Chevy straight six, often known as "blow by"...
 
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I find that Starline brass soots more than Winchester brass does with all components the same in 45 Colt in my revolvers. The Winchester brass is thinner and seals better.
 
So, there's a fingerprint in the soot on the casing in the middle, but there's also that blue color on the second case, and the soot comes down pretty far on most.

Were these handloads? If so, you might let us know what the load was. Probably just lack of obturation like swg1 says, but might be worth looking over.

These particular casings were from factory cowboy rounds. They advertised 720 FPS on them. I'm guessing that is too low for this particular rifle. I'm ramping up to start reloading 45LC so I'm assuming I'll need to be looking to be higher then that.
 
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