Sooty Cases=Underpowered?

[Potatohead]

Top o' the mornin' fellas and Happy Thanksgiving.

I whipped up a little 380 load last night and found this morning that she shoots straight, with just a tad of thump. (It's a minimum load 3.1gr 800x Sierra 90gr JHP). I think I like it, and it's been hard to like anything about .380 for me so far, but I did notice that the cases are good and sooty (35%-45% of the spent case maybe).

I'm still inexperienced and maybe Im confused but I think Ive read that this could mean you need a heavier charge. Are sooty cases always telling you that you need to up your charge? Is their usually a perfect amount of powder for a load where the soot will disappear (probably not I'd imagine)?

Or are dirty cases something you don't think much about, since their are so many variables at play?


*I'm pretty sure 800x is not the quintessential 380 powder but I like to explore all of my options with all of the powders I have- trying to find a diamond in the rough I guess.
Thanks very much. PH

 

[jwrowland77]

That's something I found with my loads using Unique on the low end.

With the low end loads, it doesn't seal off the chamber as quick or as much so you get the soot on the side of the case. Once you work up the ladder the cases will seal off better and should have less spot on the side of the case. At least that is what I found with my load using Unique.

 

[Potatohead]

Thanks. If I'm comfortable with the load I guess its ok to just leave alone? Or is this something you try and eliminate? Can their be other causes for the soot? Like just maybe some powders are dirtier?

Maybe I'll bump it up a couple for the hell of it, but I'd like to keep the low thump and accuracy.

 

[Rule3]

As a "general rule" powders on the low end of a charge get sooty or "dirty" Now 800 is not a great powder for the 380. It's pretty slow. Look at the Hodgdon data. They do not even give and start load just a max of 4.1 grains. You are way below the 10% reduction for a start load. So yes you will get poor performance and soot.

May other better powders out there for the 380 auto. As to "dirty" or clean, all powders burn, anything that burns is going to leave behind residue. You still gotta clean.

You have any other powders available?

 

[Potatohead]

Thanks for your comment Rule. I think I will up the charge a bit.

Yes I have some better powders. I have HP38,ZIP (which I also loaded up to compare and it was clean as a whistle but not as accurate- which could always be my shooting though), Herco, 800x and American Select.

I know hp38 is probably the popular thing to use, and I guess their is a reason for that, I just like to load up different things.

 

[Potatohead]

Oh I wanted to add I looked at Steves Pages also about the load. I wanted to start low because I have to make the COL short with this bullet or it fails the plunk test.

If you're sooty but you like how it's shooting, do you always up the load? I mean are we striving for clean cases? Or it really doesn't matter, if you like the load? (not really talking about this specific load, just any load-im sure this one is a bit underpowered)

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I mean are we striving for clean cases? Or it really doesn't matter, if you like the load?

It doesn't matter to me. A lot of my light plinking loads for .45 Colt leave the case pretty sooty. I don't care though. That's why I have a tumbler.

In an auto, as long as it is powerful enough for the gun to function, I wouldn't be concerned about it. No biggie.

 

[gamestalker]

Happy Thankgiving!
I'm not a real big fan of .380 either, but 3.1 is rather light with that powder. I'm sure you could safely increase that charge .5 grs., which would still put you well below a perspective start charge. Hogdon only shows a max charge of 4.1 grs., so by reducing that by 10% puts you at a start charge of about 3.8 grs.. Following that increase you could continue in .1 gr. increases until your getting satisfactory results.

GS

 

[mljdeckard]

I have had some dirty cases with Unique, and for the most part, I don't mind. I look for loads that work, and I am a bit of a cheapskate. If they work, why do I want to use more powder? I tumble them afterward whether they are a little dirty or WAY dirty. I have also learned, Unique is a somewhat dirty powder regardless, Titegroup is cleaner. I don't worry just because cases are a bit dirty.

 

[Rule3]

Back in my 380 days Yes I still like the 380 and load for it. HP38 was my go to powder. Even HP38 when loaded light will be dirty. Shoot lead and some powders and you got more mess but I clean my guns anyway,

As with anything burning, black soot indicate incomplete combustion.
Chances are your 380 is a short barrel, under charge loads in other calibers with longer barrels and you will have problems.

They test the powders for not only safety but optimum performance,

Hornady doesn't test 800. They like HP38. If you want clean try Power Pistol it burns to a light grey ash. It's very "loud" and flashy. I use it in 9mm and 40 SW,

JMO but ditch the 800 X for the 380 and use your HP38, just because there is data for it does not mean it's good. The reason why Hodgdon does not list a start load

 

[witchhunter]

Tater, yup, you nailed it. They get sooty because there is not enough pressure to seal the case to the chamber. Bump it up to at least mid-power loads and it should go away. Have a great bird day today.

 

[zxcvbob]

I've not used 800X in .380, but it's a very slow pistol powder, and 3.1 grains of Unique would a weak charge. 3.1 should be about right if you were using Green Dot or Titegroup.

800X is better suited for loading 10mm and .357 Magnum.

 

[Potatohead]

I am a bit of a cheapskate. If they work, why do I want to use more powder?

Hey, I like that train of thought!

 

[Potatohead]

Happy Thankgiving!
I'm not a real big fan of .380 either, but 3.1 is rather light with that powder. I'm sure you could safely increase that charge .5 grs., which would still put you well below a perspective start charge. Hogdon only shows a max charge of 4.1 grs., so by reducing that by 10% puts you at a start charge of about 3.8 grs.. Following that increase you could continue in .1 gr. increases until your getting satisfactory results.

GS

Thanks GS...

 

[Potatohead]

I agree on ditching it for HP38 for the majority of my plinking but one of my favorite things about reloading is trying out all of the combinations I can safely try.

Thanks for the comments all, I very much appreciate it. This is the first time ive actually gotten excited about .380 so I'm going to ride it as long as I can..

 

[DC_art]

Keep in mind that the brass may not be the only getting sooty. In my experience with light .40 loads with Titegroup,the feed ramp got filthy quickly.

 

[Rule3]

I agree on ditching it for HP38 for the majority of my plinking but one of my favorite things about reloading is trying out all of the combinations I can safely try.

Thanks for the comments all, I very much appreciate it. This is the first time ive actually gotten excited about .380 so I'm going to ride it as long as I can..

Too many people in this Country underestimate the poor 380. It has been used in Europe for many many years. Very accurate and easy to shoot, As they say shoot placement is everything, No of course it's not a 45 but it also travels in my my pocket everywhere.

I have yet to find anyone willing to hold my target for me. Don't tell them you shoot a 380 tell them its a 9mm Kurz and then they will nod with approval, OH that's a good round.

 

[Potatohead]

I have yet to find anyone willing to hold my target for me. Don't tell them you shoot a 380 tell them its a 9mm Kurz and then they will nod with approval, OH that's a good round.

Funny. You're probably right. Ive actually just had a lot more trouble loading it than 9mm, possibly some of it "user induced", but still. Also, with my little pea shooter that I shoot it out of, I've never been able to get anything close to a satisfactory group, could be my fault there too of course.

For whatever reason, I actually had a really good time shooting it today though.

 

[rfwobbly]

As with anything burning, black soot indicate incomplete combustion. Chances are your 380 is a short barrel

That's correct. Soot is the indication of an incomplete burn with any type fuel. In a kerosine lantern we would trim the wick to fix this situation. In an internal combustion engine we would lean out the mixture. In a cartridge we have 2 solutions: 1) we can increase the amount of powder, or 2) we can move to a slightly faster powder. Both are effective ways to increase the chamber pressure.

If you are happy with the way the cartridge shoots, then by all means keep it. There's no need to change at all. The soot is simply telling you that the load is not burning at its most efficient setting. Another way to say that is that your present load is less than optimal.

 

[Walkalong]

800X is pretty slow for .380, and meters poorly, which isn't good when using small charges.

You say you did not get good accuracy with HP-38, so I would suggest trying your American Select. It will work, and may provide the accuracy you are looking for with a cleaner case.

 

[Potatohead]

Thanks, will give it a whirl..

 

[Potatohead]

Another way to say that is that your present load is less than optimal

Thanks for your comment. This is one of the things I was wondering about. It just don't feel right not having the most effecient mix..pretty sure I mispelled that.

 

[rfwobbly]

Thanks for your comment. This is one of the things I was wondering about. It just don't feel right not having the most effecient mix.. pretty sure I mispelled that.

No, you did fine. The word mix is spelled correctly.

You can tweak that load if you want. Incomplete combustion only means you'll have sooty brass and a lot of unburned powder inside the gun. I agree with Walkalong, the issue is that 800X doesn't meter that well. So even if you find an optimal load weighing out 800X, your powder measure may want to dance all around it, and never deliver the same powder 'drop' twice.

An optimal burn leaves a gray/tannish to clean (no) color inside the case, and the sooty burn marks around the outside of the mouth will go away because the case is expanding enough to seal the chamber. Such as...



Those results were done with Winchester WSF in a 9mm. Of course a .380 Auto is an unlocked chamber, so you may never get those exact results.

All the best

 

[Walkalong]

Of course a .380 Auto is an unlocked chamber, so you may never get those exact results.

Exactly, a blowback action is not as conducive to clean cases as a locked breech.

My 9MM load that leaves brass almost squeaky clean from my locked breech pistols, soots the cases up some fired from my 9MM AR blowback action. That is with a fairly quick (N320) powder. Loads with mid-range burn speed powders (WSF, True Blue, N340, HS-6, etc) that are clean in the pistols soot the AR fired cases a lot.

 

[jwrowland77]

In my .380 loads, I personally use Titegroup. It's a good economical powder to use in my .380 and it's an easy shooting load with a little pop.

I also like my Autocomp load.