Remington’s Black Powder 45 long Colt Cartridge

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StrawHat

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Elmer Keith wrote on several occasions that if he were to be restricted to the 45 long Colt, he would load it with the Remington Black Powder cartridge. After he passed, and his revolvers were unloaded, it was found he had written what he practiced and indeed the loads in the 45 long Colt SAAs were the specified Remingtons.

Is anyone aware of how much and what powder Remington used that would make EK choose them over his reloads or smokeless loads?

Kevin
 
Cannot speak for ol' Elmer's loads, but I've actually loaded black powder .45 Colts.
These were, of course, in modern brass, not balloon heads.
I used a dipper made from a .45 ACP case, as the consensus was that black powder should be loaded by volume rather than weight. At the time, the advice was not to use a mechanical powder measure with black powder; that thinking may have changed since '03.
The weight was actually @ 30 grains; it filled the case right up under the bullet.
With a 258gr RNFP, this load clocked at 789'sec from a 3.5" Ruger Vacquero that I had back then.
The rounds were a PITA to load, as was the gun cleanup afterwards. Still have a couple boxes in the ammo locker, need to make some smoke with them someday soon.
Does anyone market BP .45 Colt loads currently?
Moon
 
Assuming they were blackpowder the older 45C cases would hold 40 grains by volume.
I can’t quite get a full 40 in star line cases but it’s close. The cases are brimful and the 250 grain RNFP bullet compresses the powder into pretty much a solid mass in the case.
Fired in a ROA conversion cylinder they are a hefty load. No where near EK’s beloved 44 mags however.
 
whughett said:
Assuming they were blackpowder the older 45C cases would hold 40 grains by volume.
I can’t quite get a full 40 in star line cases but it’s close. The cases are brimful and the 250 grain RNFP bullet compresses the powder into pretty much a solid mass in the case.
Fired in a ROA conversion cylinder they are a hefty load. No where near EK’s beloved 44 mags however.
Click to expand...
If you can't the get the 40 grains of powder, have you tried a drop tube? (A "trick" from Larry Potterfield. )
 
While digging out the above data, found more; shot an Old Army that same day in April of '03.
Sixty grains of BP (by the markings on the charging flask) and an 147 grain roundball clocked at 1174'sec; that should be the equivalent of the old time Walker load.
Didn't have any cylindrical colloidal boolits to check...
Moon
 
I was shooting out of a full size Ruger, but the one I had at the time was a 3.5" Sheriff's model.
Unhappily, never got around to shooting that same load in some longer barrels I've gotten since.
Moon
 
The 1880 UMC catalog listed their 45 Colt's loading as 40g black powder behind a 250g bullet. The 1891 No 1 Ideal Handbook and the No 5 version (possibly 4 years later - 1895) list the 45 Colt's load as 35g with a 250g bullet. The 1899 Winchester catalog listed their 45 Colt's as loaded with 38g of BP behind a 255g bullet.

I've read in a number of sources that the civilian loading of 45 Colt black powder ammunition continued at least up to the first WW and possibly longer. Rem-UMC loadings were the same 40g/250g Keith was probably referring to. I always found it interesting Remington (UMC) always loaded a 250g slug while Winchester chose the original 255g. That continued with their modern smokeless loads, Rem's 250 vs Win's 255.

Graham, Kopec & More in A study of the Colt Single Action Army say the original 45 Colt's load adopted by the military in July of 1873 was indeed 40g of black behind a 255g RNFP. By 1874 the Ordnance Dept started gutting the performance of the 45 Colt and they ended up with a government version of the 45 S&W cartridge. A far cry in performance from the original 45 Colt's. This while the civilian offerings duplicated or came very close to the original Ordnance developed cartrtidge.

Using modern, solid head brass I duplicate the performance Keith talked about (250g @ 910 fps) with Big Lube 250g soft cast (20-1 alloy) over 35g of OE FFFg or 36g of FFg (the FFFg seems to compress better for me). From a 7-1/2" barrel these have chronographed from 907 fps to 914 fps. The recoil makes you think you've just fired a Magnum. A good friend fired my gun and loads and claimed it was a near religious experience. (smile)

Dave
 
Dave T said:
The 1880 UMC catalog listed their 45 Colt's loading as 40g black powder behind a 250g bullet. The 1891 No 1 Ideal Handbook and the No 5 version (possibly 4 years later - 1895) list the 45 Colt's load as 35g with a 250g bullet. The 1899 Winchester catalog listed their 45 Colt's as loaded with 38g of BP behind a 255g bullet.

I've read in a number of sources that the civilian loading of 45 Colt black powder ammunition continued at least up to the first WW and possibly longer. Rem-UMC loadings were the same 40g/250g Keith was probably referring to. I always found it interesting Remington (UMC) always loaded a 250g slug while Winchester chose the original 255g. That continued with their modern smokeless loads, Rem's 250 vs Win's 255.

Graham, Kopec & More in A study of the Colt Single Action Army say the original 45 Colt's load adopted by the military in July of 1873 was indeed 40g of black behind a 255g RNFP. By 1874 the Ordnance Dept started gutting the performance of the 45 Colt and they ended up with a government version of the 45 S&W cartridge. A far cry in performance from the original 45 Colt's. This while the civilian offerings duplicated or came very close to the original Ordnance developed cartrtidge.

Using modern, solid head brass I duplicate the performance Keith talked about (250g @ 910 fps) with Big Lube 250g soft cast (20-1 alloy) over 35g of OE FFFg or 36g of FFg (the FFFg seems to compress better for me). From a 7-1/2" barrel these have chronographed from 907 fps to 914 fps. The recoil makes you think you've just fired a Magnum. A good friend fired my gun and loads and claimed it was a near religious experience. (smile)

Dave
Click to expand...

I use 38-40 grains RED label Goex with my 253 gn big lube classic rnfp design.
 
I concur with @Dave T above. The Remington load Keith was referring to was the Remington-UMC load of 40 grs / 250 grs. Whether the original Colt load presented to the Army was 40 grs of BP or not, the Remington-UMC load lodged into the public consciousness as THE 45 LC LOAD.

It takes an unholy amount of compression to get 40 grs of BP into modern 45 brass with a 250 grs bullet. A drop tube won’t do it. It will need a compression stem. The max load under 250 that I have managed is 37 grs. With the 200 grs Big Lube and 38 grs I have seen 950 fps.

250 grs of 20:1 alloy at 900 fps? Devastating. Unless you absolutely need to break bones on Very Large Creatures, this should do all you need.
 
StrawHat said:
Elmer Keith wrote on several occasions. . .
Click to expand...
Chances of this are very slight, given that Keith knew that the cartridge is called .45 Colt, there being no such thing as a .45 Short Colt that it needed differentiating from.

.38 Short Colt and Long Colt need differentiating. .45 Colt does not.
 
I load the .45 LC using 35gr of 3F under a 250gr FN bullet. I don't use a drop tube, fiber wad, and let the bullet do the compressing. As was mentioned, It's a VERY snug fit. I've not tried using my compression die but don't see the need for it. Recoil is pretty stout as-is, and not sure if trying to stuff another 5gr in there would be worth the effort. Shooting these out of a "sheriff" Remington, and pretty sure I'd be spewing unburned powder out the end of the 5,5" barrel anyway...I haven't chrono'd these loads so can't speak for the velocity but they are damn sure no squib loads.
 
edwardware said:
Chances of this are very slight, given that Keith knew that the cartridge is called .45 Colt, there being no such thing as a .45 Short Colt that it needed differentiating from.

.38 Short Colt and Long Colt need differentiating. .45 Colt does not.
Click to expand...

You are of course correct that there was never a 45 Short Colt designated as such by the Colt company.

But the 45 Govt, adopted by the Army as the compromise cartridge when it had both Colt SAA revolvers and S&W “Schofield” revolvers, and which was really just the 45 S&W by another name, is what causes the confusion. I am not suggesting Keith was confused. But the reason it is so often called the 45LC is because from about 1876 -1939, a 45 cal pistol round at 1.10” with a @.521 rim and a 230 grs bullet was loaded and had been used in the Army’s Colt SAA. In fact, it was to meet, or in fact exceed in velocity terms, the performance specs of this round that JMB developed the 45 ACP.

Again, this may also explain why Keith would have referenced or specified the “Remington”black powder cartridge cited above with its 40/250 grs cataloguing.
 
Yeah, there is the .45 Schofield, which was adapted as the standard load for everything because of both the top break and the SAA being issued. And cowboy action shooters have actually engineered a .45 Short Colt for use with .45 ACP data.
But .45Colt should cover it, tho' the world won't end if someone calls it a .45 Long Colt. Such was the practice when I started shooting, back in the dark ages of the 20th Century. Just like .357 SIG and .357 Magnum, sometimes newbies got confused.
Moon
 
StrawHat said:
Elmer Keith wrote on several occasions that if he were to be restricted to the 45 long Colt, he would load it with the Remington Black Powder cartridge. After he passed, and his revolvers were unloaded, it was found he had written what he practiced and indeed the loads in the 45 long Colt SAAs were the specified Remingtons.

Is anyone aware of how much and what powder Remington used that would make EK choose them over his reloads or smokeless loads?

Kevin
Click to expand...

That's the first I've heard of it, actually. Where did you see it? I'm not calling you out, but to the best of my knowledge, Keith preferred 2400 in his .45 Colt loads.
 
Dave T, thank you for the insight from the catalog. Much appreciated.

The rest of the answers are meaningless. I really don’t care about the anyone’s perception of the name of the cartridge. Call it whatever you need to to increase your manliness.

The question was about the black powder loading of the Remington 45 long Colt.


But, so you can read it your selves,

"...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Elmer Keith, Sixguns, page 285)

Kevin
 
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halfmoonclip said:
And cowboy action shooters have actually engineered a .45 Short Colt for use with .45 ACP data.
Click to expand...

Not quite correct.

The name of that brass is 45 Cowboy Special. Same rim design as a 45 Colt, same length and internal capacity as a 45ACP.

A 45 Cowboy Special round is in the center of this photograph. Left to right the cartridges in this photo are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP. 45 Cowboy Special was developed specifically for light Smokeless powder loads, often used in Cowboy Action. Typical 'mousfart' 45 Colt loads, which may have very light powder charges often exhibit inconsistent ignition and performance because of the large internal capacity of the 45 Colt case. Putting the same charge in a case the length of a 45ACP can improve ignition because of less airspace in the cartridge. The 45 Colt style rim allows the round to be chambered in any revolver that will chamber a 45 Colt. Putting Black Powder into a 45 Cowboy Special also results in a milder charge than a 45 Colt with 35 or so grains of Black Powder.

pmNglbXFj.jpg




A comment I will make: Lots of folks talk about XX.X grains of Black Powder. Not all Black Powder weighs the same. Many years ago I made up this chart with the actual weights of some of the common Black Powder charges that I use in several cartridges. As a standard 'volume measurement' I have referred to the various Lee Dipper sizes I have used in the past. They are calibrated in Cubic Centimeters, which are the same as Milliliters. Sorry, only five brands and granulations of powder are in my chart as that is what I was using at the time.


pml7GTgRj.jpg




One more comment: The original "40 grain" government 45 Colt cartridge was the copper cased, Benet primed version as produced by the Frankford Arsenal in 1873. These cases had more internal capacity than the later balloon head cases, and also more than modern solid head brass. This is a photo of a copper cased, Benet primed 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridges. The large crimp near the bottom held an Anvil Plate against the bottom of the case. The priming material was deposited on the inside of the bottom of the case and the Anvil Plate pressed onto the priming material. When a firing pin struck the rear of the soft copper case the copper compressed the priming material against the Anvil Plate, igniting the priming material. The flame generated passed through two flash holes to ignite the Black Powder charge. From the rear, these cases look like rimfire cartridges, but they are not, they are an early form of centerfire cartridge. This style of cartridge had more internal capacity than either balloon head cases or modern solid head cases.

pnIRvdUMj.jpg




A box of twenty rounds of copper cased, Benet primed rounds from the Frankford Arsenal. This box was produced in 1874 and has the reduced charge of 30 grains. One of my 45 Colt reloads in a modern solid head case on the right for comparison.

pnk54uT9j.jpg




In this photo a Remington balloon head 45 Colt case is on the left, a modern Winchester solid head 45 Colt case on the right. I sawed both cases in half as a visual indicator of how much more internal capacity the old balloon head style cases had than modern solid head cases.

pnkIGffOj.jpg




Not saying one cannot stuff 40 grains into a modern case, but it will have to be compressed considerably more than was necessary with either the old copper cases or the balloon head cases.
 
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You can indeed get 40 grains under a 255 grain bullet with a modern case. I use Starline brass. From a 5.5" barrel I get a high of 929fps and a low of 879fps. Most rounds hang right in there at 890-something fps. 9 grains of Unique produces identical velocity. High of 926fps, low of 869fps. And again, most rounds going 890-something fps.

I compress the powder in a separate step, same as with getting 70+ grains in my .45-70 with a 400 grain bullet. If you try compressing 40 grains with the bullet, results are usually not good. Or pretty.

I did see a video where a 40 grain load was fired in a 7.5" barrel, and they did achieve 1000fps, although most rounds came in just a hair under that.

When I look at Driftwood's sectioned cases, I don't see a whole heaping extra amount of room in the balloon head case. And again, I've had no trouble getting 40 grains in Starline brass, and that includes a veggie-fiber wad.

Elmer did indeed praise the Remington 40 grain load, and mentioned that it would penetrate a large cow-bull's skull, from the front, where other .45 Colt loads would not.
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
Not quite correct.

The name of that brass is 45 Cowboy Special. Same rim design as a 45 Colt, same length and internal capacity as a 45ACP.

A 45 Cowboy Special round is in the center of this photograph. Left to right the cartridges in this photo are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP. 45 Cowboy Special was developed specifically for light Smokeless powder loads, often used in Cowboy Action. Typical 'mousfart' 45 Colt loads, which may have very light powder charges often exhibit inconsistent ignition and performance because of the large internal capacity of the 45 Colt case. Putting the same charge in a case the length of a 45ACP can improve ignition because of less airspace in the cartridge. The 45 Colt style rim allows the round to be chambered in any revolver that will chamber a 45 Colt. Putting Black Powder into a 45 Cowboy Special also results in a milder charge than a 45 Colt with 35 or so grains of Black Powder.

View attachment 1032653




A comment I will make: Lots of folks talk about XX.X grains of Black Powder. Not all Black Powder weighs the same. Many years ago I made up this chart with the actual weights of some of the common Black Powder charges that I use in several cartridges. As a standard 'volume measurement' I have referred to the various Lee Dipper sizes I have used in the past. They are calibrated in Cubic Centimeters, which are the same as Milliliters. Sorry, only five brands and granulations of powder are in my chart as that is what I was using at the time.


View attachment 1032654




One more comment: The original "40 grain" government 45 Colt cartridge was the copper cased, Benet primed version as produced by the Frankford Arsenal in 1873. These cases had more internal capacity than the later balloon head cases, and also more than modern solid head brass. This is a photo of a copper cased, Benet primed 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridges. The large crimp near the bottom held an Anvil Plate against the bottom of the case. The priming material was deposited on the inside of the bottom of the case and the Anvil Plate pressed onto the priming material. When a firing pin struck the rear of the soft copper case the copper compressed the priming material against the Anvil Plate, igniting the priming material. The flame generated passed through two flash holes to ignite the Black Powder charge. From the rear, these cases look like rimfire cartridges, but they are not, they are an early form of centerfire cartridge. This style of cartridge had more internal capacity than either balloon head cases or modern solid head cases.

View attachment 1032655




A box of twenty rounds of copper cased, Benet primed rounds from the Frankford Arsenal. This box was produced in 1874 and has the reduced charge of 30 grains. One of my 45 Colt reloads in a modern solid head case on the right for comparison.

View attachment 1032656




In this photo a Remington balloon head 45 Colt case is on the left, a modern Winchester solid head 45 Colt case on the right. I sawed both cases in half as a visual indicator of how much more internal capacity the old balloon head style cases had than modern solid head cases.

View attachment 1032657




Not saying one cannot stuff 40 grains into a modern case, but it will have to be compressed considerably more than was necessary with either the old copper cases or the balloon head cases.
Click to expand...
Driftwood, what bullet is in that Schofield case? Looks shorter than a 45JP
 
Cowhide Cliff said:
Driftwood, what bullet is in that Schofield case? Looks shorter than a 45JP
Click to expand...

That is the original shape of the J/P 45-200 the way I designed it. 3rd from the right in this photo. The first four bullets in this photo are all Big Lube bullets. Left to right they are the 180 grain 38-40 bullet, 200 grain 44 caliber Mav-Dutchman, 200 grain J/P 45-200, and 250 grain 45 Caliber PRS bullet. Next is the 405 grain bullet I use for 45-70, and one of my old pan lubed 45 bullets.

poT2ujYMj.jpg




Here is a photo of Black Powder cartridges with those bullets seated in cartridges. Left to right are a 44 Russian, with the Mav-Dutchman, 45 Schofield with the J/P 45-200, 38-40, 44-40 with the Mav-Dutchman, 45 Colt with the PRS bullet, and 45-70 with the 405 grain bullet.

poQkmpp3j.jpg




At some point Dick Dastardly changed the shape of the J/P 45-200 slightly so it is no longer so squat, but that is the way they came out of the molds I had Lee make up for me for the original design. It was that squat because I was trying to keep the lube groove really big and keep it at 200 grains. The Big Lube mold Dick sells for that bullet now is 210 grains. From what I can see on his website the lube groove was reduced slightly from the original, and the rest of the bullet is not quite so squat.

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=71852f19-e55b-4d6f-aadc-4f3b186e6e27
 
Ugly Sauce said:
You can indeed get 40 grains under a 255 grain bullet with a modern case. I use Starline brass. From a 5.5" barrel I get a high of 929fps and a low of 879fps. Most rounds hang right in there at 890-something fps. 9 grains of Unique produces identical velocity. High of 926fps, low of 869fps. And again, most rounds going 890-something fps.

I compress the powder in a separate step, same as with getting 70+ grains in my .45-70 with a 400 grain bullet. If you try compressing 40 grains with the bullet, results are usually not good. Or pretty.

I did see a video where a 40 grain load was fired in a 7.5" barrel, and they did achieve 1000fps, although most rounds came in just a hair under that.

When I look at Driftwood's sectioned cases, I don't see a whole heaping extra amount of room in the balloon head case. And again, I've had no trouble getting 40 grains in Starline brass, and that includes a veggie-fiber wad.

Elmer did indeed praise the Remington 40 grain load, and mentioned that it would penetrate a large cow-bull's skull, from the front, where other .45 Colt loads would not.
Click to expand...


Sir I've given up telling people you can fit 40 grains into a modern case pretty easily with no special die.
I've got around 150 loaded with 40 grains but still people tell me it's impossible without a balloon Head case. Go figureo_O
 
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Yep, but I keep trying to spread the word. However, the word that you "can't" get 40 grains in a modern case spreads faster. :cuss: I think it's the compression thing that perpetuates the myth. Most people familiar with using smokeless powders are used to a little air-space, or 100% density, and that compressing a powder is a "bad" thing.
 
Howdy Again

Not too long ago I ran a little test.

First, I set my old Black Powder measure to 40 grains.

Then I measured out 40 grains 'by volume' of my standard Black Powder, Schuetzen FFg and weighed it.

I did this a few times because there was a little bit of variation with that type of powder measure. The actual weights of '40 grains' of Schuetzen FFg measured out by my old BP measure ran between 39.7 and 41.0 grains.

Then I poured one of these charges into a modern Starline (the brand I usually use) 45 Colt case.

To my surprise, the powder did not overflow the case, but came right up to the brim.

Then I tapped the case a couple of times on the bench to settle the load.

This was the result:

pnofqQw3j.jpg





As can be seen 'about 40 grains' of Schuetzen FFg does not leave much room for a bullet to seat all the way. It would have to be compressed, either separately with a compression die, of by the base of a bullet as it is seated.



This is my normal 45 Colt Black Powder load: 2.2CCS of Schuetzen FFg. Notice how much more space there is for the bullet. This load allows for the nominal 1/16" - 1/8" of compression that I prefer. Yes, that is a PRS Big Lube 45 250 grain bullet, also standard for my 45 Colt BP loads.

poqJoPc2j.jpg




I have already posted this chart of my standard BP loads, I post it here again for reference. Notice the 2.2CC load of Schuetzen FFg actually weighs 33.3 grains.

pml7GTgRj.jpg




Here is a close up photo of loading 45 Colt on my Hornady Lock & Load AP progressive press. The Lyman Black Powder Measure that I mount on this press is set to deliver the same 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg. Notice the level of powder in the round about to have a bullet seated. Again, the bullet will compress the powder by about 1/16" - 1/8" when seated.

plbVRDyAj.jpg




In conclusion: I am not saying one cannot get 40 grains of powder into a modern solid head case. But my simple experiment with the powder I usually use shows that it will need to be compressed more than my standard BP charge in order to seat a bullet.

And don't forget, as I have said many times, not all Black Powder weighs the same. When one says they are using 40 grains of BP, which brand and which granulation they are using may make a difference as to how much space is left for the bullet.
 
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