Hysterical about loading black powder into cartridge?

[ClemBert]

I posted the following on another forum under the Handloading/Reloading board.

===================================================

So, why is it that some folks on this forum seem to get hysterical when someone mentions doing reloading with real black powder? Is it because they are naive and don't realize that, for a long time, cartridges were only loaded with black powder?

Semi-smokeless and smokeless powder was not actively used in cartridge loading for some time after the common use of metal cartridges.

Some of the most famous cartridges from the "old west cowboy days" still survive today and are as popular as ever. The .45 Colt, .45-70 Government, .44-40, .45 Schofield, .38 Special to name several. These were all designed for and loaded with black powder.

Black powder does NOT "explode". It deflagrates...that is, it burns rapidly. There was one fella (who shall remain anonymous unless he wants to out himself) on this forum who basically stated that using black powder in a cartridge was like putting dynamite in there. Dynamite and black powder are two different things. Dynamite is based on nitroglycerin not black powder. It is a "high explosive" whereas black powder is classified as a "low explosive". "Low explosives" do not explode, they deflagrate.

Black powder is a propellant...so why the hysteria?

 

[rdstrain49]

Yep

 

[hogshead]

Online cowboys.

 

[Nar]

I Was actually giving some though to that, when talking to a friend i pointed out that we could reload using black powder, after a second of mental calculation he realized i was right, I don't he any reason why it can't be done, but i don't think it will be as effective.

 

[Phantom Captain]

LOL! Awesome.

Oh it's effective alright! The only cartridge reloading I do is .45 Colt with BP. I use a 250 grain .452 bullet that I hand cast and 30 grains of 3f Goex that I hand reload. I've made hundreds and hundreds of them.

I'm mostly a cap and baller but had to buy a .45 SA and when buying it it was with the full intention of ONLY shooting traditional BP cartridges out of it. Absolutely love 'em and it always gets attention at the range. True BP .45 Colt is where it's at. Super fun and cool.

Some folks is just ignorant I guess!

 

[damoc]

.22 short and long rifle you forgot those

all your shot guns.

I agree i like loading with black its awfull hard to overload a cartrige or
shell and apart from being a little dirty the only other drawback
is the cost modern powders being much cheaper it seems.

i did read though that under extreme loading pressure it can detonate
not just burn aparently the navy did some tests which produced some
fantastic results.

 

[BHP FAN]

That's all I load in my .45-70's.

 

[ClemBert]

i did read though that under extreme loading pressure it can detonate

Not to parse words (or maybe I am ) but "explode" and "detonate" are two different things. Jus' sayin'

Sometimes you see someone mention how hand grenades at one time used black powder thus from a layman's point of view since grenades explode the conclusion is that black powder explodes. But, I wonder from a technical sense, how one could make the argument that water is an explosive. After all, we all have heard stories of boilers on old steam locomotives exploding.

 

[Coltdriver]

The only thing I have ever heard is that a lot of airspace in the case is bad with black powder. I have loaded and shot a bunch of the original 45/70 formula using a drop tube to pack the powder in and putting a 405 grain lead bullet over it. Works great.

Maybe someone can confirm that a lot of airspace in the case is a bad idea?

 

[Jim Watson]

It is generally agreed that ANY airspace between black powder and bullet is undesirable.

There are some systems like breechseating scheutzen guns that leave a space. There are some scheutzen guns with ringed chambers, too.

 

[J-Bar]

A .45 Colt with a case full of any blackpowder or BP substitute under a 200+ grain bullet is a damned impressive thing to touch off. Ain't nothin' like the movies.

 

[damoc]

im pretty sure detonate was the most applicable term if i remember correctly.

just went and reread it he said that overpresure loading could detonate it maybee
but that it was an unproven thoery.

he did say that blackpowder could produce pressures of 100000 psi

 

[makos_goods]

im pretty sure detonate was the most applicable term if i remember correctly.

just went and reread it he said that overpresure loading could detonate it maybee
but that it was an unproven thoery.

he did say that blackpowder could produce pressures of 100000 psi

damoc,
You're quoting Sam Fadala in his book who makes the assertion that the low pressures generated by Black Powder are "wives' tales." He references some work done by Able and Noble (not Alfred Nobel). What he doesn't relate is that the pressures he referenced was generated in a closed vessel during a comparison to an open barrel, definitely not a fair comparison. You left out the part where he admitted it was under laboratory conditions. Sensationalism at the expense of good science...The Navy tests he references were similar in nature.

I love the allusion to danger, "overpressure loading could detonate it maybe, but that it was an unproven theory." Sounds more like a cable TV show about ghost whisperers than factual information. He never tells us what "overloading" is, just that it is ooooooooooooooooooow.... spooky.

He offers no documented proof not even any allegorical references. I find most tales of horror and danger with Black Powder to be just tales.

Regards,
Mako

 

[damoc]

yep thats the author

i am carefull both to not leave any space but also
to not overcompress bp when loading my loading practice is due largely to this author.

i have found this author to be correct in everything i have read and if he says
i should be cautious on an unproven theory about overcompression of bp im going to be cautious and i dont mind passing it on.

matters little if it was under lab condition the whole idea of having a lab is to try and test things and conditions which may be uncommon but may very well
occur.

a barrel of a gun IS a closed vessel if conditions occur to prevent the bullet
and charge escaping so those tests seem perfectly relevant to me

 

[noylj]

The day I can shoot over 1000 rounds in .45 Auto with Black Powder and not have any problems is the day I might think about it.
There really is a reason why smokeless took over.

 

[razorback1010]

The day I can shoot over 1000 rounds in .45 Auto with Black Powder and not have any problems is the day I might think about it.
There really is a reason why smokeless took over.

Haven't tried 1000 rounds yet, but I've already shot 200 BP rounds in a row with my Winchester 1873 44/40 rifle without the slightest problem and an accuracy I can't reproduce when shooting smokeless with the same rifle.

 

[makos_goods]

yep thats the author

i am carefull both to not leave any space but also
to not overcompress bp when loading my loading practice is due largely to this author.

i have found this author to be correct in everything i have read and if he says
i should be cautious on an unproven theory about overcompression of bp im going to be cautious and i dont mind passing it on.

matters little if it was under lab condition the whole idea of having a lab is to try and test things and conditions which may be uncommon but may very well
occur.

a barrel of a gun IS a closed vessel if conditions occur to prevent the bullet
and charge escaping so those tests seem perfectly relevant to me

damoc,
I always find it interesting that people will follow unsupported regimens and fanciful concepts in spite of literally hundreds of years of practical experience.

Regards,
Mako

 

[Oyeboten]

I have shot over 300 rounds of 'GOEX' without any cleaning whatever, with Zero hint of any problems or drag or fouling in my Uberti WALKER with it's .003-ish Cylinder Gap and the use of right Lube...still have not cleaned it in a year and a half, so, far as I can say, I would expect 1000 rounds to be no issue whatever.

Right Lube makes a world of difference.


I love BP for Metallic Cartridge Revolver also.



I have no idea why anyone would get 'hysterical' about BP Metallic Cartridge...I have not encountered that yet.


I doubt there is enough room in any conventional Hand Gun Cartridge, for leaving enough Air Space to matter in any catastrophic sort of way, with BP...but no Air, and a firm compression, has always been the right way to go, regardless.

Or, I believe the issue of potentially catastrophic Air Space between Powder and Projectile, was regarding Muzzle Loading Rifles, where, one could short tamp the Ball leaving six or eight inches or more, and, m-a-y-b-e, then, have some sort of weird problem.

 

[makos_goods]

The day I can shoot over 1000 rounds in .45 Auto with Black Powder and not have any problems is the day I might think about it.
There really is a reason why smokeless took over.

noylj,
Then you will never know that you can in fact quite successfully shoot BP in a 1911 because you won't even investigate it. Many have, and do, it simply takes the willingness to try something and reject the armchair experts that paralyze not merely the actions but the minds of those who blindly accept their "wisdom."

If you want to shoot BP in a .45 ACP simply load a 225-230 grain lead bullet in a case full of FFFg. To determine what a "case full" is hold your bullet next to a case at the depth it will be crimped and mark the case where the base of the bullet is. Now make a mark 1/16th of an inch closer to the mouth of the case and that will be the level you will add powder to. This will give you 1/16th of an inch compression when crimped. Many people will take that case and cut it to that mark which gives the a ready made measuring scoop.

To successfully shoot more than three or four magazines you are going to need to use Black Powder friendly lube to your bullets. There are many references to suitable lubes on this and other forums. The lube will keep the fouling soft and allow you to shoot entire matches without any cleaning or you pistol or magazines.

Don't use any spring heavier than a standard 16 lb spring and if you decide to shoot 200 grain bullets then go to a 14 lb spring. I have used H&G 200 grain semi wadcutters lubed with my favorite BP lube of Mutton Tallow, Bees Wax and Paraffin. I find a 225 grain round nose will give you reliability for hundreds of rounds. It's becoming a small fad to shoot BP in a 1911 in "Wild Bunch" matches at some CAS clubs. I have even shot in an IDPA match with BP on a dare.

Clean up is simple, Remove the barrel and wash it in soap and water. You can probably just clean the frame and slide as you usually do. If you want to fully clean it merely strip them down and wash them in soap and water as well then simply oil them and reassemble them. You will be amazed at how easily BP cleans up. It is easier to remove than the carbon fouling and leading you get from smokeless powder. I'm very sincere about that.

Step out and live a little...

Regards,
Mako

 

[Oyeboten]

Good mentions Mako...


Ballistically, the original .45 AUto was on par with .44 Russian, anyway, far as that goes.

I Love my Colt Model 1911, but, have not got set up for re-Loading for it yet.

Once I do, just for fun, I will try all the hard compress 3 F Swiss I can fit.

Right Lube makes for way easy clean up also, as you know.


It is a shame that so many Shooters suffer so, for not using right lube, where they have foulind, hard foulingh, messy or tedious clean up, and, find these to detract from the otherwise ease and joy of it all.

 

[StrawHat]

Some of the fellows I know are using 72 or more grains of Bp in the 45-70. They are using a lot of compression to do that. The results on target are impressive, at longer ranges. I have used the 72 grain charge and do not find it significantly improves accuracy with my shooting style. I normally load a lightly compressed charge with any bullet I use. Same with the 50-70.

 

[PRM]

I have been shooting vintage revolvers long before the SASS thing took off. At one time I had a S&W New Model #3 in 44 Russian, a S&W 38 #2 single action and my Colt SAA in 45LC. All of these were shot with Goex FFFG loaded cartridges to the original factory specs.

Lots of fun, lots of smoke.

I have shot over 300 rounds of 'GOEX' without any cleaning whatever, with Zero hint of any problems or drag or fouling in my Uberti WALKER with it's .003-ish Cylinder Gap and the use of right Lube...still have not cleaned it in a year and a half, so, far as I can say, I would expect 1000 rounds to be no issue whatever. ~ Oyeboten

Now that's right interesting? I've always found black powder residue to be very corrosive. How do you leave that on your gun and experience zero problems? I think I will continue to clean my Colt.

 

[BHP FAN]

''Hysterical about loading black powder into cartridge?''
It IS pretty funny!

 

[BHP FAN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gEJF1fMJ1g

 

[damoc]

damoc,
I always find it interesting that people will follow unsupported regimens and fanciful concepts in spite of literally hundreds of years of practical experience.

Regards,
Mako

hehe well not everyone shooting BP on this board had the advantage of having fought
in the civil war the rest of us must rely on common sense,experimentation and the advice
of respected authors on the subject