Need advice on eye focus problem in prone position

Until very recently, I was shooting entirely from a bench, developing my 6.5 Creedmoor load, and doing reasonably well for someone my age (71). I was shooting 5-shot groups averaging about 0.6 MOA at 300 yards, and having no trouble seeing the bullet holes in the paper targets through my rifle scope.

Then I moved to prone position, as my plans for the future include trying F-Class. That's when a eye focus problem manifested.

I have found that in bench shooting, I can quickly get a well focused reticle and target, and successfully hold that focus for as long as I need to perfect my sight picture and fire the shot.

But when I shoot from prone, I immediately, and always, have great difficulty acquiring a focus good enough to actually take a shot confidently, and that substandard focus does not last anywhere near long enough. The image starts to unfocus within a couple fo seconds. And, I am generally unable to see the bullet holes in the target after firing. I have to wait a long time to rest my eyes and then look again at the target to see the holes.

My buddy and shooting mentor, who unfortunately lives a day's drive each way away, advised me after the first time this happened, that this is somewhat common as a problem, especially with older shooters and those with already corrected vision. He said it is a result of having to tilt the head relative to the prone body, to align with the scope, in a manner that restricts blood flow to the eye system. He advised me to practice doing it more, and to rest between shots by dropping my head so that it is better aligned with my prone body, and give the body enough time to restore unrestricted blood flow to the eyes.

I have tried that at a subsequent range session, but it is not helping as much as I need it to help. My prone groups are almost 12% larger than when shooting from the bench. More importantly, I ENJOY shooting from the bench, but am really DISLIKING shooting from prone, and feeling pretty uncomfortable. And not being able to see the bullet holes right after shooting is a real issue.

Since many shooters can shoot well, and apparently comfortably, from prone, I assume this is all some defect in either my shooting position or my technique.

Can I get some helpful advice?

Jim G

JackRyan and Laphroalg: I do wear eyeglasses with progressive lenses. But, I am looking through the exact same portion of the lens in both bench and prone positions. I know this because I can see the inner/upper edge of the lens (where it meets the eyeglass frame) in BOTH bench and prone positions. That is not a problem, as laser surgery corrected my vision enough that I only need the eyeglasses for reading, so looking through the upper portion of the lens is fine.

The difference seems to be entirely in the position of my head relative to my shoulders. When shooting bench, my head is tilted left but still directly above my chest (since I am sitting), while in the prone position it is still tilted left but also cantilevered forward of my shoulders instead since my body is laying down BEHIND my neck versus sitting with the neck ABOVE it. This means my neck is not directly supported by my body like it was at the bench, but rather hanging out forward of it. Also, in this prone position, the back of my neck is compressed and the forward elongated, in order to get high enough to look into the scope. So I get where my buddy's comment on restricted blood flow comes from: my neck is being highly distorted.

To picture this more easily, imagine yourself standing upright and craning your head to look high upward at something above you. The front of your neck is then being stretched, while the back of your neck is being compressed. My buddy is basically saying that this is what is happening when I shoot prone, given my current body position and my rifle setup. And this he says is causing a restriction in blood flow to the eyes.

Something that may be very important: I am using a Rempel bipod and a Protektor rear bag, using basically a "free recoil" technique, just as I would use in shooting F-Class ("Belly benchrest"). That setup works VERY well on the bench, but raises the rifle a bit, since the bottom of the ears on the rear bag is about 4 inches above the shooting mat. I suspect that things might improve in prone if the rifle were closer to the ground, since the degree of neck front stretch and neck back compression would be decreased. But to shoot from closer to the ground, I would need to be shooting in 3-position shooting, not F-Class, and I'm not interested in 3-position shooting.

I find shooting from the bench very relaxing, and so I enjoy it, and do well at it (My average group size at 300 yards is about 0.6 MOA, but my best groups are as small as 0.28 MOA, so I have high hopes for the average improving a lot over time!). I need the prone position to be as comfortable and enjoyable - or at least comfortable and enjoyable enough to want to do it! You can't do well at something that is uncomfortable for your body and therefor not very enjoyable.

I wish I had a local (versus remote) experienced shooting buddy who could critique my body positioning and my shooting technique to troubleshoot this issue. But COVID has severely restricted my interactions with other shooters, and the 300 yard maximum range at our club means that there are no other true and experienced long range shooters at the club normally. And really, I would need a long range shooter who is both experienced AND a good diagnostician and teacher.

I'm hoping that someone on this forum might be able to point me in the right remedial direction.

Jim G

Mn Fats said:

Sounds like you're straining your eyes. They have some very powerful muscles behind them but may not be used to looking upwards for extended periods.

I've had to prop up sweatshirts or coats beneath my ribcage while laying prone in the field to get my face more centered with the scope.

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Yes, I thought about how placing something under my chest could possible help, but in F-Class shooting you are only allowed to have the bipod and a rear bag, no other supports.

Jim G

LiveLife said:

I think you should be talking to your eye doctor and check for cataract.

I had near sightedness and wore glasses all my life and went through bifocals briefly and quickly to progressives because I couldn't see the sights of my pistols. My sister and BIL both had eye surgery to correct their vision. Well, last year after I turned 55, I ended up getting cataract surgery and chose to go with Vivity IOL implants for 100% light transmission for both near/far sight (Also for seeing my pistol sights and night driving without halo/rainbow, etc.). I couldn't believe how dark and yellowing of my lenses were along with cloudiness that impaired vision day and night (Particularly certain parts of the field that were affected by cataract cloudiness).

Now even after eye surgery, my BIL has cataract and will be needing IOL implants too.

You see, everyone gets cataract ... yellowing, darkening and distorted/cloudy vision ... It's part of aging process, just matter of how soon and how bad they get before we die. Some get in their 50s-60s, some even in their 40s.

So if you are already wearing progressives and having vision issues seeing your gun sights/targets, first thing I would do is check with my eye doctor and rule out cataract and go from there. (I also have glaucoma with optic nerve end damage but cataract surgery helped normalize my intraoccular pressure back down to normal on two eye drops)

I hope this helps.

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Good thoughts, but:

- I had the laser surgery and artificial lenses installed, like you apparently did, about 5 years ago, and yes it improved my vision tremendously! Like you, I could not believe how much brighter and more colourful The World again appeared. In fact, coming home form the first appointment (they do eyes one at a time), I was amazed at how different everything looked from the old eye versus the "newly rebuilt" eye! I remember thinking that a line of construction barriers on the highway looked "dull" from the old eye but appeared vividly bright from the rebuilt eye!

- Remember, I said I have NO problem with focus or level of detail when shooting from the bench. I only have the problem when shooting in prone. And, I shoot my handgun with open sights with no problem at all. So, I don't think it is a built-in problem with my eyes, it is a problem related to the prone position.

Jim G

earplug said:

Try getting into position behind a rifle with a lower/higher bipod and rear bag combination. Try and find a better combination then what you have.
I wear bifocals and have a double fuzed neck and both shoulders have been remodeled. Some of my rifles are much easier to shoot prone then others.

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That's a reasonable suggestion to try! I can fairly easily try a HIGHER rifle position, as the Rempel front bipod is easily adjustable, and I can place one or multiple books under the rear bag temporarily.

Going down though will not be possible with the rear bag - it cannot be lowered. All I can do is try shooting with the Rempel bipod lowered and NO rear bag. That will very adversely affect my group size, as the rear bag made a BIG improvement when I started using it. It's very heavy with the special "heavy sand" and the ears force the rifle to recoil very straight rearward and very consistently. But, if shooting without it with the rifle lower improves the eye focus, that would tell me that I should get a lower bag.

I'll try both higher and lower rifle elevation next time I go to the range! I'll also bring a couple of heavy books of differing thickness so that IF shooting with no bag does improve the focus, then I will try incrementally elevating it until the focus degrades. That will let me know how tall a bag I CAN use.

Jim G

LiveLife said:

Then maybe you are having this problem? - https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/side-effects-cataract-surgery-complications-cope

"Posterior capsule opacity (PCO) - Sometimes blurry vision is caused by PCO, a fairly common complication that can occur weeks, months or (more frequently) years after cataract surgery. It happens when the lens capsule, the membrane that holds your new, intraocular lens in place, becomes hazy or wrinkled and starts to cloud vision. PCO is a result of cells growing on the membrane over time, similar to scar tissue.

What helps? - This condition can be treated with a quick and safe laser procedure called a YAG laser capsulotomy. Your cataract surgeon will use a laser to make an opening in the cloudy capsule, allowing light to pass through for clear vision. The procedure takes about 5 minutes and does not require an incision."​

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No. The ONLY time I have a focus problem is when shooting PRONE. No focus problems or blurriness of anysort when shooting bench or doing ANYTHING else. Outside of prone shooting position, and reading VERY small print on medicine bottles, my eyesight is remarkably good.

Jim G

Laphroaig said:

I think that you keep answering your own question, but seem to be wedded to your specific Protektor rear bag. A comfortable prone position has your cheek supported by the rifles stock with the eye centered in the ocular lens of your scope. Not 1 neck muscle should be in play. I've heard it advised to "die on the rifle". You make it sound like there is a difference between F-class and unsupported prone position but the only difference is that F-class allows rear bag support. Protektor makes many rear bags, some of which are obviously designed to only be used from a bench which I suspect is what you are trying to use. The fact that you look through the same place in your glasses in both prone and bench shooting is also a red flag that your prone head position is too erect. I have a rear bunny ear bag that I can slide along the stock to adjust the height so I can comfortably shoot prone with the same head position as if I was shooting unsupported.

At times any sport requires you to make an adjustment if you aren't succeeding.

ETA: Don't be surprised if your scopes eye relief changes once you get a proper prone position. Your head will naturally fall further forward than it was from the bench. Don't try to fight that if you want to be comfortable.

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Thanks, this is very insightful! I think you have hit on ONE of TWO issues that are affecting my shooting. The height of the rear bag looks like one. My cheekbones are the other. Let me explain.

Yes, I can see where I might need a lower height bag for prone versus bench shooting. That makes sense given the fact that the prone body position might well require a lower height for the scope's optical axis relative to the shooting mat surface for the reasons covered earlier in this thread,

But I need to also explain my cheekbone issue:

My cheekbones are very wide and come down further than typical. That unfortunately makes every rifle stock or chassis I have found, including the ones with an "adjustable" comb, too high for me to be able to get my eye properly behind the optical axis of the scope. I actually need the top of the adjustable comb to be LOWER than the bore centerline. There appears to be no commercially available stock or chassis that allows that low a comb height.

On my PGW M15 XRS rifle, which comes from the factory with an MDT XRS chassis, I had to physically REMOVE the adjustable comb, and I shoot from the bench using a free recoil technique where the only 2 points that exert pressure on the rifle at the time of firing are my trigger finger and my thumb. I do slide the rear bag from side to side, and the rifle stock forward and rearward, but only while setting up the POA. I do not exert any pressure on the stock or bag while actually squeezing the trigger. I find this shooting position and technique VERY comfortable, and eye focus only degrades if I need more time than usual to set up a specific shot. On most shots, eye focus never is an issue when shooting from the bench.

But in the prone position, I can now see where you are correct, that the prone position may REQUIRE that the head be supported by the comb, because otherwise the neck strain is high enough to trigger the blood flow restriction to the eyes. If that's the case, I have a big problem because there is no rifle chassis that can get my eye aligned with the scope axis. And if that is the case, F-Class may not be in my future.

Jim G

Thank-you Guys, for all the optical inputs, which gives me another potential remedial path for my issue. I had planned to see my eye doctor this summer anyway (just because it's regular eye exam time anyway), so I'll just move up the planned date a bit. Right now is still too early, as my eye doctor is located on the other side of a 40km drive through a mountain pass, and this year's bizarre local winter weather makes it unwise to schedule appointments more than a couple days away, before we get to month of April! (Our geographic area actually REQUIRES BY LAW use of "real" (not all-season) winter tires from October1st to March 30th, because of the treacherous winter driving conditions!)

In the meantime, I will try varying the height of the rifle above the shooting mat, and any other change I can think of, and see what if anything make a difference or not. If nothing helps enough, I'll continue shooting from the bench, and doing my pistol shooting as well, until I can see the eye pro.

Jim G