Tell us more. Is this stuff, or its residue, hydroscopic? Can it be loaded and handled like smokeless?Black M-Z powder
Driftwood, what was the purpose of the of the spur on the trigger guard?This is the Russian model, specifically a 2nd Model Russian. Notice the big, pointy hump on the grip that I mentioned in an earlier post. Notice too the spur on the bottom of the trigger guard, although it was sometimes sawed off. And a few New Model Number Threes had the spur on the trigger guard. The identifying feature is the big hump on the grip.
There are several theories behind the spur on the trigger guard of the Russian model.Driftwood, what was the purpose of the of the spur on the trigger guard?
Moon
I got one of those too. A COVID project I got into when I couldn't get to the gunstore..or rather could't get INTO the gun store. Kind of a cheap gun collection. Guns I knew I'd never actually spring real money for.I got one of the Colt/Umarex air pistols. I like that the length of the CO2 cartridge necessitated an 1860 grip frame.
Thanks, Driftwood. All that makes sense; the Smiths are an adjustment after the more familiar SAA.
When we were kids, we put a finger on it on our cap guns.
Someone speculated that it might be a guard, if using the handgun to parry a saber blow.
Thinking out loud here, it is amazing the ergonomic missteps arms makers followed, and just how right some others got it...Browning for one.
Moon
Thank you Driftwood for marvelous posts and pictures in them!
Would you have Beretta Laramie or Uberti New Model N°3 (I believe we are talking about the same revolver under two different model codes)?
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How that one handles when compared with other top break revolvers you listed?
Actually, I was thinking more about things like the Mauser Broomhandle, or even the Brit autos with their nearly 90* grip angle. Not really throwing stones here; ergonomics wasn't even a smile on anyone's face back then. A whole lot of things were just being figured out as they went along.Yes, I forgot the theory about parrying a sabre blow. I don't give that one much credit, I still think the trigger guard spur was just a design affectation.
Regarding 'ergonomic missteps' don't be too hard on Smith and Wesson. Don't forget, the pointed knuckle and the trigger guard spur were specific features required by the Russians.
I forget all the details, but a relative of the Tsar accompanied Buffalo Bill on a 'hunting expedition' in the early 1870s. He was very impressed with what we call today the American model, which was the first large frame, #3 Top Break revolver being manufactured at the time. Based on his recommendation, S&W obtained a contract for 20,000 revolvers from the Russian government. These are variously known as the First Model Russian, or the Old, Old Model Russian. Physically this model was pretty much identical to the American model, with the only major change being chambering it for what came to be known as the 44 Russian cartridge. The previous American model had been chambered for a cartridge that came to be known as 44 American which employed an outside lubricated, heeled bullet, much like we see on modern 22 Rimfire ammunition. (A few American models were chambered for 44 Henry Rimfire). The 44 Russian cartridge carried a smaller diameter bullet, .429 in diameter if I recall correctly. Although some sources say the early 44 Russian cartridges were outside lubricated, the idea was that the bullet would carry lube grooves inside the brass case, so outside lube did not pick up contamination.
This is a photo of my 1st Model Russian. The barrel has been chopped down, an old coin has been substituted for the front sight, it wears some funky modern grips, and it has been polished down into the white, all of which made it affordable to me. Typically 1st Model Russians go for big money. As I said earlier, this model is visually identical to the American model, the only difference being the chambering.
Here is my 1st Model Russian broken open with some of my Black Powder 44 Russian ammo.
In 1873 Smith and Wesson signed the 'second contract' with the Russians, and sold them approximately 85,000 revolvers, ending production of the 2nd Model in 1878. This is when the changes required by the Russians kicked in. Here is a photo of my 2nd Model Russian, which shipped in 1875, with some antique 44 Russian rounds. Note the radically different grip shape, as well as the spur on the trigger guard.
Smith and Wesson signed a third contract with the Russians in 1874, selling them another 13,500 revolvers. Production of all Russian models ceased in 1878. The only physical difference between the 2nd Model Russians and the 3rd Model Russians was a large, knurled thumb screw at the top of the top strap on the 3rd Model, which made disassembly easier. If you google the 'Russian' model revolvers being made by Uberti, you will see they are all copies of the 3rd models, with the large thumbscrew on the top strap.
Anyway, with additional sales to Turkey and Japan, Smith and Wesson eventually produced about 150,000 Russian models of all three models. Far more than any of the other large frame #3 Top Breaks. So I would not call the awkwardness of the Russian models a misstep, S&W was providing what the customer wanted.
But it is interesting to note that when the New Model Number Three came out in 1878, the same year Russian production ceased, the awkward grip of the Russian model grips became a thing of the past.
This one is chambered for the unusual S&W 38-44 target cartridge, not to be confused with the later 38-44 double action cartridge. Much to my chagrin I found out later that this target model could also fire 38S&W cartridges. Not 38 Special, 38S&W.
They're pretty cool. I got mine a few years ago when I lived in a neighborhood. Something to shoot in the backyard between trips to the range.I got one of those too. A COVID project I got into when I couldn't get to the gunstore..or rather could't get INTO the gun store. Kind of a cheap gun collection. Guns I knew I'd never actually spring real money for.
l like the 1860 grip also,
Your Rigs are so elaborate! looks like your ready for a ceremonyNone of these are in production any more. Glad I got my Frontier when I did, it was the only S&W replica made in .44Spl and they stopped making them shortly thereafter. I carried it in the field a few years.
They're pretty cool. I got mine a few years ago when I lived in a neighborhood. Something to shoot in the backyard between trips to the range.
I don't like plain stuff. I did the belt and sheath but haven't really wanted to dive headlong into floral carving. So I found a guy on Etsy that does them for what I consider to be, too cheap.Your Rigs are so elaborate! looks like your ready for a ceremony
My sister sold her refinishing on Etsy way to cheap, till she found an audience for her style. (antique furniture) now she priced very high. Lots of good stuff on EtsyI don't like plain stuff. I did the belt and sheath but haven't really wanted to dive headlong into floral carving. So I found a guy on Etsy that does them for what I consider to be, too cheap.
Black M-Z was an earlier version of American Pioneer Powder, distributed by Hodgdon. They have since discontinued it but APP is still in production and used quite a bit by cowboy action shooters who don't like messing with real gun powder's fouling. APP can be cleaned up with just water and the bullets don't require special "soft" lubes like real gun powder.Tell us more. Is this stuff, or its residue, hydroscopic? Can it be loaded and handled like smokeless?
First I've heard of it.
Moon
All black powders and their commercially available substitutes are hygroscopic, corrosive if left for any length of time, and clean up in much the same way - with soap and water.Black M-Z was an earlier version of American Pioneer Powder, distributed by Hodgdon. They have since discontinued it but APP is still in production and used quite a bit by cowboy action shooters who don't like messing with real gun powder's fouling. APP can be cleaned up with just water and the bullets don't require special "soft" lubes like real gun powder.
Dave
Sigh. That's what I love about Trailboss, which is thin on the ground right now.All black powders and their commercially available substitutes are hygroscopic, corrosive if left for any length of time, and clean up in much the same way - with soap and water.
Thin would be an improvement! It’s like 3 years since they ceased distribution ? I believe I heard that a TB replacement of some kind is on the horizon.Sigh. That's what I love about Trailboss, which is thin on the ground right now.
Moon
All black powders and their commercially available substitutes are hygroscopic, corrosive if left for any length of time, and clean up in much the same way - with soap and water.
Sigh. That's what I love about Trailboss, which is thin on the ground right now.
Moon
So less with modern cartridge primers than with percussion caps?Part of the reason Black Powder was so corrosive is because it used to be used with corrosive primers. We don't use corrosive primers any more, and the result is that real Black Powder is far less corrosive than most shooters think.
As far as I know, modern percussion caps are also less corrosive than the originals. But definitely, shooting Black Powder with modern non-corrosive primers, or modern non-corrosive percussion caps makes the fouling less corrosive than in the 'old days'.So less with modern cartridge primers than with percussion caps?